Bullying and Suicide

[danreidbarmi]

"On Sunday, hundreds of Rutgers students attended a vigil in honor of Tyler Clementi at the school’s New Brunswick campus. The 18-year-old leapt off the George Washington Bridge last week after his apparent roommate, Plainsboro resident Dharun Ravi, and Mr. Ravi’s friend Molly W. Wei of West Windsor, allegedly broadcast video of Mr. Clementi having a sexual encounter with another man." From The Princeton Packet

Regardless of the progress in terms of acceptance of gays and lesbians on Main Street and in the media, teens still seem to be tortured with the stigma and shame (or even the suspicion) of homosexuality. My 18-year-old daughter, who attended an arts magnet high school, in which at least half of the student body was openly gay or bi, is as unprejudiced as one can be in this regard. However, she constantly uses the word "gay" as an adjective to describe something as uncool or weak. Machoism is constantly glorified, while sensitivity, creativity, and an artistic sensibility are ridiculed. For a teenager, to be outed can be fatal.

A Texas teen was tormented by high school bullies. The boy's parents protested numerous times to the school administration. Yet, nothing was done about it. In the meantime, a girl in the same school was suspended simply because she pointed her index finger at a teacher, while the bullied, gay teen hung himself.

We must dedicate ourselves to helping educate the world that there should be no stigma in sexual orientation, and that all bullying should be stopped. Tyler Clementi was a gifted violinist. He may have turned out to be a genuine classical genius. We'll never know, because his roommate and a friend chose to use a video camera and the internet to pull a prank that shamed the budding musician into taking his own life.

I know you're with me on this one. Whatcha think?

[Long Duck Dong]

what about the other 17 students that died last month from bullying.....

that aside..... we created the bloody issue..... by pushing the teens to come out and be proud, making themselves a target, than castrated the powers that be, from doing anything about the bullying cos of human rights and kids rights....

I posted in the thread about dan savage about the same thing

[Falke]

I am definitely with you.

There is also another post here chatting about the "It gets better" project.

http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10173

[TaylorMade]

"On Sunday, hundreds of Rutgers students attended a vigil in honor of Tyler Clementi at the school’s New Brunswick campus. The 18-year-old leapt off the George Washington Bridge last week after his apparent roommate, Plainsboro resident Dharun Ravi, and Mr. Ravi’s friend Molly W. Wei of West Windsor, allegedly broadcast video of Mr. Clementi having a sexual encounter with another man." From The Princeton Packet

Regardless of the progress in terms of acceptance of gays and lesbians on Main Street and in the media, teens still seem to be tortured with the stigma and shame (or even the suspicion) of homosexuality. My 18-year-old daughter, who attended an arts magnet high school, in which at least half of the student body was openly gay or bi, is as unprejudiced as one can be in this regard. However, she constantly uses the word "gay" as an adjective to describe something as uncool or weak. Machoism is constantly glorified, while sensitivity, creativity, and an artistic sensibility are ridiculed. For a teenager, to be outed can be fatal.

A Texas teen was tormented by high school bullies. The boy's parents protested numerous times to the school administration. Yet, nothing was done about it. In the meantime, a girl in the same school was suspended simply because she pointed her index finger at a teacher, while the bullied, gay teen hung himself.

We must dedicate ourselves to helping educate the world that there should be no stigma in sexual orientation, and that all bullying should be stopped. Tyler Clementi was a gifted violinist. He may have turned out to be a genuine classical genius. We'll never know, because his roommate and a friend chose to use a video camera and the internet to pull a prank that shamed the budding musician into taking his own life.

I know you're with me on this one. Whatcha think?

Machismo, you mean. It's not entirely a Macho/Artist dichotomy.

I'm partially with you, but not entirely with you. I was bullied long before I figured out my sexuality, and I'm sure many would point to the same experience ... how about we expand our focus to all sorts of kids instead of tunneling on our own?

*Taylor*

[citystyleguy]

...bullying is its own thing; if you encourage others to make their stand, then you must make them understand what is needed to hold their own. bullying will exist as long as there are those, who for the sport, that what ever they want will be taken, exist and it is us that will need to stand up to it.

[tenni]

"A Texas teen was tormented by high school bullies. The boy's parents protested numerous times to the school administration. Yet, nothing was done about it. In the meantime, a girl in the same school was suspended simply because she pointed her index finger at a teacher, while the bullied, gay teen hung himself. "

Bullying has increased a lot over the past ten years or so. The use of the internet as well as in person bullying can create an almost impossible process to stop. The gang mentality of adolescence and "minding your own business" so that the bullying doesn't fall on you is a real problem. The group think mob mentality is difficult. When pre adolescents and adolescents taunt other students, investigation may lead to a dead end where it is not known which party is the root of the conflict. At times, not in the case of the above suicides, digging down to which party is responsible becomes nearly impossible.

Pointing a finger at a teacher is easy to investigate. Behind that finger pointing may be some bullying tactics because written as it is above does not seem grounds for much. Students do not stop at just bullying and taunting other students. Teachers may also be attacked on the internet and in person. Teachers are in a leadership role and have more at their disposal than an adolescent who is being victimized. Some schools initiate a zero tolerance in this area and others but again digging down to find enough evidence to suspend let alone expell a student may be difficult. Calling something or someone as "gay" is a decade old adolescent weapon to show put downs and displeasure. Perhaps zero tolerance should be instituted for such language? How are you going to prove it though? One side states yes and the other side states no. Witnesses do not come forward etc. Parents do not always see their son or daughter as bullies and may not co operate but threaten the school as well. It might be the apple not falling far from the tree or denial.

Certainly, though, parents whose child is being victimized by bullying need good guidelines to indicate whether action needs to be taken or will this resolve itself. The Tyler Clementi case was not adolescents per sei but the actions of someone who did not or is not able to understand the consequences of his behaviour. The human brain does not reach an adult level of cognitive and consequential maturity for some until 25. Whether Tyler Clementi's room mate was a homophobic bully or just some ass who did not, could not think through the possible consequences for his behaviour. Many bullies apparently do not or can not empathize with another person well enough to stop their behaviour. Their egocentricity prevents them. Regardless there should be approaches to provide better protection for the victims of bullying.

[Long Duck Dong]

pokes tenni...... you speak as a parent with experience, or a person that is in the loop with bullying

either way, you are saying what pupils, parents and teachers have all said.... and that is what people are not seeing.... its easy to say we need to stop bullying.... but people in the know, are saying, HOW????????

[Falke]

Machismo, you mean. It's not entirely a Macho/Artist dichotomy.

I'm partially with you, but not entirely with you. I was bullied long before I figured out my sexuality, and I'm sure many would point to the same experience ... how about we expand our focus to all sorts of kids instead of tunneling on our own?

*Taylor*

Well said Taylor.

[danreidbarmi]

Machismo, you mean. It's not entirely a Macho/Artist dichotomy.

I'm partially with you, but not entirely with you. I was bullied long before I figured out my sexuality, and I'm sure many would point to the same experience ... how about we expand our focus to all sorts of kids instead of tunneling on our own?

*Taylor*

Maybe I've mistakenly coined a word, but I think "macho-ism" is a more pointed term. And, yes, bullying extends to fat kids, small kids, kids with bad skin, kids who can't afford the right sneakers, whomever... But, "gay" is the new "n word" for teens, one that sustains a stigma extending far beyond sexual orientation, or even (as in your case, Taylor) before the realization of sexual orientation (sometimes we are the last to know...).

I don't pretend to be an expert on "how" to stop bullying, but I do know that awareness has to help. That parents, teachers, and school administrators turn a blind eye to this sort of attitude and behavior out of ignorance and/or discomfort with the whole issue, and that the Internet facilitates cruelty doesn't excuse its growing preponderance. Complex challenge, yes. Insurmountable? No. I refuse to surrender.

[TaylorMade]

Maybe I've mistakenly coined a word, but I think "macho-ism" is a more pointed term. And, yes, bullying extends to fat kids, small kids, kids with bad skin, kids who can't afford the right sneakers, whomever... But, "gay" is the new "n word" for teens, one that sustains a stigma extending far beyond sexual orientation, or even (as in your case, Taylor) before the realization of sexual orientation (sometimes we are the last to know...).

I don't pretend to be an expert on "how" to stop bullying, but I do know that awareness has to help. That parents, teachers, and school administrators turn a blind eye to this sort of attitude and behavior out of ignorance and/or discomfort with the whole issue, and that the Internet facilitates cruelty doesn't excuse its growing preponderance. Complex challenge, yes. Insurmountable? No. I refuse to surrender.


Explain your term, please.

I've learned one thing about the word 'gay'. Two things, really. Nothing really stings as much as the n-word. Two. It's sometimes more about who says it than what they say. There's a thin line between watching one's words and policing speech.

Probably an open door policy on the part of teachers to students as a start. That's how I began to survive. Probably truly enforcing things across the board, taking away thing students really want. . .barring them from homecoming or a school trip. Preventing them from starting a game for 'lack of character'. Factor it into grades. Make it a real and actual breach of student contract behavior. . .but not a "one-size-fits-all" solution.

That's an idea.

*Taylor*

[Long Duck Dong]

ok stopping them going on school trips...and being aware ... are not working

punishing a kid by infringing on their education will not work as all you are doing, is impacting on their grades and exams.....
its been tried in a number of places and schools......

in nz they tried to change it by denying schools the right to expel students for serious offences, unless there is another school that will take them...... thus empowering the bullies and teaching them that they were near untouchable....

under the nz privacy act, most nz schools lost the power to interact between students and parents...... and that was a massive fuck up.... then the greens party brought in the anti smacking law, so parents that discipline their kids, lost even more control and added to that is the ban on corporal punishment ( strap and cane ).... so we successfully tied the hands of all the people that have the power to act...... and then we added the new stance of bullies have issues and are misunderstood... so we empowered the bullies to blame social influences and shit for their actions and that removed responsibility from the bullies and laid it on everything else other than the bullies....and that has created bullies that believe and know that they are seen as the victims......... and the actual victims of the bullies see that the bullies are protected more than the bullied

the other issue is that there is awareness of the bullying, the schools and teachers are only too well aware of the bullies and bullying...... but they are powerless to do anything until the victims speak up, then the school tries to do what they can within their limited powers, knowing full well that if you stop it in one place, the bullies will continue it in another place.......
even the legal system can not touch the bullies unless they are over 16 and therefore can be charged with a criminal offence......

so the victims of bullying are seeing one way out..... and we are burying them......

I am so bloody frustrated and angry at a system that got vocal about rights for people and created this fucking mess....and now will not take responsibility for it, but tries to pass the buck and lay the blame on society.....

so creating videos to say to kids that it gets better 10-15 years from now is useless if you can not say to them that we can stop the bullying now and protect them......
10-15 years to a 11 year old is a fucking lifeltime, its as long as they have been alive..... and if they have been getting bullied for 1 year.... 10 times that is a eternity.....

we are adults, we survived, we have lived thru it..... but we have lost the understanding of how time works for kids and we have stopped looking thru their eyes........

if we want to help the kids, really help the kids, we need to get in there, right in there, beside them, in the schools.... create the safe zones in the schools
even something like a lunch time group for various activities, can shelter the kids from the bullying as its times like breaks and movement between classes that a lot of bullying takes place, and while it goes on in class, that is where the teacher needs to have more control and power to act....

recently we had a teacher stabbed in class ....and that is the teachers worries, they too are not safe from the students now..... they are not safe from the bullies.... even the teachers now are being bullied by the bullies......

and we created that.... we gave the bullies the power to become bullies and we also removed the responsibility from the bullies for their actions......

and what worries me, is they are the next generation......

[dafydd]

I don't call it bullying. It's hate crime.
Someone goes out in the streets calls someone else a "faggot" and punches them and it's hate crime. You do exactly the same thing in a school corridor and it's called bullying.
It's all hate crime and the police should be involved in more school issues, and schools should respond with equal severity.

d

[darkeyes]

In some ways I am lucky. I am employed in a rural school.. compared to an inner city school it is a piece of cake.. yet even here there is everything you could ever want in the way of bullying.. kids find a weakness and exploit it in a child.. and I know several gay kids who God help them if the general school population ever finds out.. and teachers have so very little they are able to do in all seriousness to stop it.. in essence, teachers and staff have been neutered. I would never wish to see the return of the tawse to Scottish schools, for its effectivess was always debatable. Girls were rarely strapped, and the boys who were, in time became hardened to it and played up to such a degree that it was macho to be leathered.. 6 of the best meant 6 brownie points for the lads.. beside the fact that it was s brutal form of punishment in any case, the only kids who were scared of it were those who were no trouble in any case..

Sanctions do not work. Often kids are sanctioned, and the next thing we get is parents camped on the door of the school shouting merry hell and telling us we are victimising their kids.. and detention? Christ... what a laugh... parents soon tell us what that means, and as often as not it means trouble not for the child but for the teacher and the school. Take a kid out of the school rugby team for being an arse and the sports teachers and even the head give us earache for proposing that. And almost more than anything the parents dont half cut up rough cos young Johnny has been dropped for the weekend match because he was intimidating a litttle boy 2 years younger than him.

When kids are at school, we have a duty of care.. we also accept during school hours the role of the parent.. that is what we are in effect.. unfortunately we are not allowed to utilise all the skills which a parent needs to properly raise a child.. neither government, local authority, teaching unions or parents will allow us that right.

What is the answer? I dont know.. I read and read, and discuss it with colleagues.. but I am at a loss to know just how to change things.. one thing I am pretty sure of and only one.. that until parenting skills improve, then teaching will continue to be undermined and schools will always be chaotic and not a little dangerous.. we do not teach parenting.. and everyones idea of parenting is different.. but one skill they should learn is how to support schools, and stop believing their kids are little angels.. how to be consistent in their dealings with their children..

It is society's fault Duckie... no doubt about it.. but who is society? Us.. you, me and everyone else... every single one of us! Until society gets its act together, then I doubt whatever we do in schools will change things much however much we try.

[Thomas_The_Rhymer]

There was a lot of bullying at my high school. Although I was the smallest guy in my year I was never bullied. I think that might have had more to do with the fact that I was jacked, had a shaved head, and beard than anything else though. I was very masculine and homophobic but that was just to make sure no one even thought for an instant about me being attracted to men as well as women. Now that I've graduated I've "come out" and I'm free to be as feminine and gentle as I please. Although I know that person I was in high school wasn't really me, pretending it was saved me a hell of a lot of trouble...The guys that were gay/bi at my school seemed really flamboyant and they caught a lot of flak for it. So is all this pressure to "come out" and "be who you are" in high school really necessary? Folks are simply too cruel in high school to accept someone outside the norm in most schools. Here in the Buckle of the Bible Belt it is just not in your best interest to be very open about your homosexuality at that point in your life...I may have worn a mask but that mask just might have saved my life...

[rissababynta]

hiya danreidbarmi

LMAO Ok...ok I'm sorry...but when I saw you refer to "gay" as the "new 'n word'" that really made me laugh. I think because you said it in response to Taylors post, of all people. You don't tell a black person that ANY word is comparable to the "n word" dude lol. That's just...sort of not right haha.

On another note, I disagree with that anyway. I've never actually met anyone who felt truly offended for being called gay. Ever. I HAVE seen many people get upset or annoyed over being called a Fag, but gay? Na. Especially with how the view of the queer community has shifted! The majority of people who are for equal rights for LGBT are young people. I could see older generations taking offense to someone thinking you are gay, but the younger folks generally don't see it as such a horrible thing anymore. It wasn't all that long ago that I was a teenager so...I'm still sort of "hip" to the trends HAHA.

[Billys_gurl]

I am going to speak from the Mother point of view. Just as stated above the bullying is not exclusive to, or any harsher towards 'gay' students than 'straight' students. My son is 11 now and has been picked on, put down, and pushed around since about 2nd or 3rd grade. He is a very sweet boy. He cares about people, worries about grown up things, and is a mommas boy. I had a lot of issues when I carried him i.e. I almost didn't get him. So, yes, I and my mom coddled him because of it. So he is an easy target and we know it is our fault. We are trying to let him go and be more independent but in that regard it is a scary world and if I lost him I would go crazy. It is a painful thing to see him come home upset and on occasion in tears because someone called him gay or something. As far as I know and he says, he has a girlfriend and loves the ladies. He knows that he can talk to me if he feels that he cares differently. His biological father was a gay man, I am bisexual, and his step-dad is Trans-gender and bi-curious. We would understand where he stood an it would not bother me in the least. I would love to be the parent that confronts the bullies but then what does anyone learn? All it would do is make it harder on the kid when the parent wasn't there to protect them. We as a society and parents need to teach our kids the value of their fellow man. Not how to exploit weaknesses and point out the differences. So, it is our fault as much as anyone elses. We keep preaching change but many of us are still sitting on the sidelines doing nothing but telling the others what should be one.

[tenni]

"We as a society and parents need to teach our kids the value of their fellow man. Not how to exploit weaknesses and point out the differences. So, it is our fault as much as anyone elses. We keep preaching change but many of us are still sitting on the sidelines doing nothing but telling the others what should be one."

These are wonderful idealistic statements but they do not exist in a kid's world unless the kid projects strength. There has been and always will be some form of bullying. Sometimes the bullied have set themself up unintentionally by exhibiting too much difference or intelligence and "softness". Others may be intelligent, caring and soft but are not bullied. They don't have to be tough acting and so it can be a bit of a mystery why one particular child is bullied excessively. Every child will come home crying or upset about a social interaction now and again. Some will be constantly harassed though and these people do not project strength. They are projecting weakness and difference. They are not reacting to any form of bullying in a manner to stop it. True, it is the bully who should be held more accountable but a parent running out defending their child will not work. However, any parent who sees their child constantly coming home upset will react. That is completely understandable and in the case of excessive bullying something needs to be done. Sometimes, it requires removing your child from that environment and it works with a new fresh start. It becomes quite upsetting when the bullying follows the student to the new school. It is not the same person but that indicates that the victim is perpetuating the bullying in some manner. Those cases are rare but not unknown to happen.

Billy's Gurl
If you have not encouraged your son to take self defence classes I would do so. He must not become overconfident that it will protect him but he probably needs not only boxing, karate skills but an understanding as to if and when not only to use these skills but divulge that he has these skills. Each individual bully needs to be assessed as to how to be dealt with. The "other kids" also need to respect him.

My nephew was one of these victims as a child. He was different and that was shown by his behaviour. He lives in a small community where everyone knows your name. Now he is 17 and as funny as it seems one of the kids that bullied him has become his best friend as they finish high school. This other kid use to get other kids to tease him and one time strip him to his underwear right on a street corner. My nephew has become a very big young man and he is quite strong. He has been a loner and had few friends up until recently. It is interesting how things change in a person's life. He has always been the big or fat kid but he seems to have finally developed social skills that have made him "kewl" in the other boy's mind. His physical strength probably didn't hurt either though. He was always taught by his parents to not use his physical strength out of fear that he might really hurt someone. (He is ADHD off the wall and consequences are difficult for him to understand). I think that he has started to use his strength just enough to stop the bullying. I must admit that I saw a Facebook video of him using it and I was frightened that he might really hurt another boy seriously. It certainly has stopped the bullying though.

[shortstroke]

I don't call it bullying. It's hate crime.
Someone goes out in the streets calls someone else a "faggot" and punches them and it's hate crime. You do exactly the same thing in a school corridor and it's called bullying.
It's all hate crime and the police should be involved in more school issues, and schools should respond with equal severity.

d
Finally, someome with a solid idea. I know it is probably a "caveman" idea but I taught my children that if they were bullied, to retaliate. If that meant taking a baseball bat and cracking some bones, aim for anything except the head. God forbid the son of a bitch bullying my son/daughter should not be able to feel the pain. I raised 5 children, two of which are now attornies, one a doctor and the other two in high ranking positions in the military and they all used what I taught them, to great success.
If society will not take it upon itself to protect its own, its own must protect itself.

[danreidbarmi]

hiya danreidbarmi

LMAO Ok...ok I'm sorry...but when I saw you refer to "gay" as the "new 'n word'" that really made me laugh. I think because you said it in response to Taylors post, of all people. You don't tell a black person that ANY word is comparable to the "n word" dude lol. That's just...sort of not right haha.

On another note, I disagree with that anyway. I've never actually met anyone who felt truly offended for being called gay. Ever. I HAVE seen many people get upset or annoyed over being called a Fag, but gay? Na. Especially with how the view of the queer community has shifted! The majority of people who are for equal rights for LGBT are young people. I could see older generations taking offense to someone thinking you are gay, but the younger folks generally don't see it as such a horrible thing anymore. It wasn't all that long ago that I was a teenager so...I'm still sort of "hip" to the trends HAHA.

Sorry if that was offensive to Taylor or anyone. I do not take racism any more lightly than bullying, nor do I assume that I know what it's like to be called the "n-word," (as Taylor spells it).

But, I do have to disagree with you on this: Being called "gay" is extremely offensive to pre-teens and teens. And, for a boy who is just entering that confusing and overwhelming puberty phase, it can be devastating to think that any peer believes him to be "gay." Why else would these kids be taking their own lives?

I have to agree wholeheartedly with Tenni. Any boy (gay, straight, undecided, fat, skinny, short, pimply, whatever) who is getting bullied should get his butt to a marshal arts class. There, he will gain strength, confidence, self-esteem, and establish a spiritual foundation, all of which will equip him to gain the upper hand and put those bullies in their place. I think of that wonderful scene in The Christmas Story, when Ralphie finally retaliates and bloodies his tormentor's nose. Such triumph for that pudgie, four-eyed softy!

And, speaking of putting bullies in their place, somehow we've gotta show bullies that they are not cool. Individually, human beings are for the most part well meaning, kind, generous. In packs, we can be mean as hell and drag each other down to the level of barbarians. If bullying was never cool, the vast majority of bullies wouldn't bully.

Dan, the barbarian

[Lenore]

I experienced bullying full force in school. Lucky for me the internet was only just becoming popular at the time so I was able to avoid the cyber bullying, but I endured the rest. Isolation, gum in my hair, name calling, being attacked both at school and on my way home, etc. You name it I endured it. What did my school do when I reported it? Absolutely nothing. What did they do when I walked out of school many times because I could take no more? What did they do when I REFUSED to go back and be treated like that? In school suspension for me. it is time that educators AND parents take bullying seriously. It is NOT a right of passage. It sticks with you for life, and there were many times that I wanted to disappear.

No matter what the reason is for the bullying it needs to stop. I am glad to see the issue getting so much attention, but I am so very sad about how it got that attention. I feel like I can relate to how those boys must have been feeling on some level and I'm sorry that their lives ended in such a tragic and senseless way.

[by~his~side]

hetero-
may God have mercy on your soul. tyler clementi was a human being. a young man who felt so ashamed and humiliated that he felt no other option but to take his own life. your view of this tragedy is a crime in itself. i feel embarrassed for you.

~D~

[tenni]

If this problem was "easy", don't you think that the school system would have dealt with it by now? It is too simplistic to say the school system should deal with it. In many, cases bullying happens outside of the classroom and school building. It can be a build up of behaviour that each behaviour doesn't seem like bullying but cumulatively it can become an overwhelming experience for the victim. I do not think that it matters whether the word is "gay" or "fag" or roadkill, if the word has power to cower then you will have a bully/victim relationship. Group dynamics and gangs are part of the problem.

Hetero has part of the answer but not all the answer imo. Standing up to bullies is important and "usually" works in small situations. The explosion of internet bullying like Clementi had to deal with is a larger and more complicated bullying. Added to that, the personality of some victims makes it difficult to "stand up" and punch the bully in the nose.

[dafydd]

Finally, someome with a solid idea. I know it is probably a "caveman" idea but I taught my children that if they were bullied, to retaliate. If that meant taking a baseball bat and cracking some bones, aim for anything except the head. God forbid the son of a bitch bullying my son/daughter should not be able to feel the pain. I raised 5 children, two of which are now attornies, one a doctor and the other two in high ranking positions in the military and they all used what I taught them, to great success.
If society will not take it upon itself to protect its own, its own must protect itself.

um actually that's not at all my point. I was saying that bullying should be treated as hate crime and punished accordingly, not by vigilantes but by the law. Now depending on what country you live in will depend on how severe and effective hate crime law is. In the UK it's pretty good. Violence never solves violence, although I get your frustration and perhaps its a pressure-cooker fantasy.

d

[dafydd]

this is so silly, I think this country is just too damned soft. Look, if your a kid and are getting bullied, here is the solution. Its the only solution, its time tested, proven to work. Raise your hand, extend fingers, then curl fingers all the way into your palm, and wrap your thumb around your fingers making a tight fist. Then, thrust your fist into the nose of the bully, repeat as much as you feel required. Do this as often as required until the bully (or bullies) gives you the appropriate respect and space. problem solved. Sack up people, quit acting like bullying doesnt happen in all aspects of life and instead of crying about it, just stand up for yourself or tell kids to do the same. Bullies pick on the weak who dont fight back, so simply fight back and bully will move on to easier pickings or maybe even grow up and quitpicking on people.
This is such a lame topic and even lamer that losers are killing themselves because they get bullied. I have no sympathy for anyone who sucks so hard that instead of just going berserk on a bully and ripping them a new one, that they off themselves. No sympathy. That person would not have made it in the real world anyhow. Sorry, but its the truth. People, and kids in this country are too damn soft and need to sack up and stand up for themselves. period. I got picked on big time when I was a kid for being differant, beat up every day because I was told "no fighting" and just be nice, and ada yada, but kids a mean and cuel and the only way to fight fire is with fire. Plus, all these losers who killed themselves....sorry, but the parents are to blame for not knowing what the christ was going on in their kids life. My parents knew I was getting picked on, and were all over the admin, and when the admin did nothing my Dad said, ok, lets go get martial arts lessons and you have my permission to kick ass and take names till it stops. Instead of trying to talk to my bullies and assailants, I started beating the living shit out them and low and behold................I wasnt bullied anymore. There is the solution, law of the jungle, fact of life, this is how it is, solution. I didnt cry and bitch or start a web campaign against bullies like all these losers are doing, I sacked up and thats the solution. SACK UP PEOPLE!

Kind of sounds like you want to live in 'an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth' kind of world. trouble is if we all did this the world would be running around eyeless and toothless - and it does nothing for educating people. education that is proactive is much better than violence that's reactive.

d

[Long Duck Dong]

I did what a few people preach, I was a bullied kid, I learnt martial arts, I became the bully of the bullies.......

there is a fine line between the bullied and the bully, and I crossed it..... I beat the hell out of the school bullies, and then I faced the music at school and I ended up in harsher trouble than the bullies ever did.....

that was something that was worse than the bullying I had suffered, it was like it was wrong for me to defend myself and fight back........ and I was being punished for not continuing to be the bullied........

so my advice is simple, if you are going to defend yourself against bullies, do it, but stop at the defending yourself....... revenge is a very dangerous path to walk...and I do regret walking that path..... as it fast became so easy to start swinging punches as a way of dealing with any issues......

I became a counsellor and therapist to help others get thru their issues and work thru their problems, yet, my own issues and problems had become greater than my ability to deal with them and I lost control over my own life

if we are going to condone the use of self defence and martial arts against bullies, we need to bear in mind, that we may be creating something worse than a bully....

most bullying is emotional / mental and verbal abuse as it leaves no marks on the skin...... hitting somebody does, and teaching the use of force to deal with emotional / mental and verbal abuse, is not always the best way....

[danreidbarmi]

hetero-
may God have mercy on your soul. tyler clementi was a human being. a young man who felt so ashamed and humiliated that he felt no other option but to take his own life. your view of this tragedy is a crime in itself. i feel embarrassed for you.

~D~

Thank you. Well said. Even tho you and I have had issues in the past, I acknowledge the truth you speak from the heart here. And, while I believe wholeheartedly that bullied kids should be empowered with the physical tools to retaliate, to say that violence is the only solution completely flies in the face of a civilized society.

I was shocked last night, watching a TV ad for a new DVD set on WWII graphically depicting the incredible destruction and mayhem, and for what? That's exactly what hetero's logic leads to. And, to deny empathy for a now dead gay kid who couldn't live with the humiliation of being outed on line in such a criminally invasive way, demonstrates a lack of humanity.

This thread is important. It's bigger than any one of us. We should be putting our best efforts toward creating more and greater awareness of this issue, (in spite of the lack of compassion of some primitive retrogrades).

Dan

[void()]

Discipline.

True discipline taught by example. It teaches respect, honor.

I also somewhat agree with Hetro. Teach children the motto, "don't start anything, just damn well finish it." But that also falls under discipline.

Again, teach by example. This may be truly difficult, too. Who teaches parents by example?

Marshall McLuhan had it right, "the medium is the message". Think we can all see the writing out there, ourselves. Perchance but a spark to alight an inferno, instill discipline by example.

Prefacing being called a primitive retrograde, I do not advocate wanton violence. But self defense or defense of those you love is acceptable in my opinion. There again, a paradox, you only need listen to Hands of Love by U2.

[Long Duck Dong]

I hate writting this, I do not want to say this and it fucks me off that I am posting this...... but here it is

we are creating a world of people that can not handle anything....... 30-40 years ago, we are harder, stronger and we knuckled under and dug our feet in.....
marriage was marriage for better or worse, most of us stayed monogamous with our partners, we stayed in marriages that were less than perfect, we stayed at jobs that were bad, but paid the bills, and we respected the cops and each other....

the new generation lack that..... marriage is fine as long as we get to do whatever the hell we want in it, including sleeping around and not really committing to our partners or the marriage, but instead staying in it until we found a better option.....
most of our lives are fought in court, playing the blame game, and trying to make others pay for our own stupid mistakes.....
even the kids games we played like tag and stuff have been replaced by pc games and console games with cheat codes so players can not die or have to redo a level a few times, but breeze thru the game.....
fuck one year the americas cup was sailed on the water and fought in courts to decide who won what race......

but now... get a broken heart and there is no cheat codes, no court to rule on it, no constitution to protect us..... and the kids of nowadays, can not get their parents to fix it or threaten the neighbour or report it to the police....

the kids nowadays have no idea how to survive as we do not teach them how to survive as we ourselves are too busy fighting to make our own lives easier and free of hassles and issues......

if I stub my toe, I do not curse and swear now, I find out the name of the company that supplied the bricks and the bricklayer and I sue them for having no warning labels, and for laying the bricks in a way that allowed me to stub my toe on them...... the fact that I kicked them is not my fault.... cos I can not be at fault or wrong.....

there is any number of disorders i can have, that explain why I fart in church and giggle about it..... so I am a person with a disorder, the dirty looks I get are from people that do not understand and accept my disorder.......

we have created a generation of people that have more protections than we do, and they feel they are bulletproof, yet unable to deal with the bullets that hit them......
we used to get hit with the bullets, and pull them out, look at them and eat them, cos we had to.......

todays generation is not equipped with the skills and ability to survive the world of hard knocks as we removed them, and made it easier for the kids to live their lives........ but we also removed their ability to handle the things that society and the law can not protect them against...... emotional and mental issues.....

maybe society has made huge advances in technology and medicines and education and social advances and war warfare and transport and travel etc....... but we have gone backwards in peoples abilities to handle and deal with emotional and mental pain and suffering..... and we have kids now that commit suicide cos their first relationship ended and the pain and suffering is beyond anything they can handle.......

we are not even allowed to discipline our kids so even there we are teaching them that nobody has the right to lay down rules or tell them they may not do something..... so they think that they have unlimited freedom and rights and melt down when they find they can not.....

hetero is right, as much as many will feel he is wrong...... nature weeds out the weak...... unfortunately more and more people are becoming weaker.....as they fight for their rights, their options, their choices and they no longer have to deal with denial, restrictions and boundaries......
even now people enter into marriage with loved ones with the understanding that they are not committed to their partner but free to go sleep with everybody else........ and even the going gets tough, they get divorced....

I am old school, marriage is a commitment to my partner, I have to work for what I want, I am responsible for my actions, my words and my attitude....
and I do not have the right to do whatever the hell I want........
that is why I survived bullying and being bullied....... and that is why I remain so loyal to my partner now......

[pelthas]

my :2cents: is that there is always gonna be some dick for brains that doesn't like you for whatever reason. I personally was picked on MOST of my academic career. I got braces early, I've had reading glasses since the 4th grade, I have red hair, and I'm Jewish, so basically I was the perfect target. Ah but there more ... I have a firey temper(I've nearly broken my hand multiple times, because I punched a couple walls). So, basically I know how it feels, but I do not feel that committing suicide is the answer.
I also have a few coments on what people said.


the other issue is that there is awareness of the bullying, the schools and teachers are only too well aware of the bullies and bullying...... but they are powerless to do anything until the victims speak up, then the school tries to do what they can within their limited powers, knowing full well that if you stop it in one place, the bullies will continue it in another place.......

While that may be true in some countries and states in the US, Duck, there are always ways to bend the rules. The rules usually work like this the more and the sooner the teacher knows the better. The only problem is when a kid comes up a lot then the teacher or the other students sometimes think that they are a tattle tale, which only leads to more and teasing.


if we want to help the kids, really help the kids, we need to get in there, right in there, beside them, in the schools.... create the safe zones in the schools
even something like a lunch time group for various activities, can shelter the kids from the bullying as its times like breaks and movement between classes that a lot of bullying takes place, and while it goes on in class, that is where the teacher needs to have more control and power to act....

Duck the "safe" zones don't work in the US. As far as the breaks and change times, some schools make it so that you have to go from one side of the school to the other in five or less minutes.


If you have not encouraged your son to take self defence classes I would do so. He must not become overconfident that it will protect him but he probably needs not only boxing, karate skills but an understanding as to if and when not only to use these skills but divulge that he has these skills. Each individual bully needs to be assessed as to how to be dealt with. The "other kids" also need to respect him.


Tenni I started karate when I was 6 yrs old; all it did was create more fights and more pain, because I usually got in more trouble than bullies that started the fight. Also there are two kinds of respect; there's the kind gained through fear(the kind your talking about, which would make him worse than the bullies), and the kind that is mutual respect.

[tenni]

Pelthas
That may have been so. Something was not working for you if you got into more trouble than the bully for defending yourself. Whether you over reacted or another point, it did not work for you. Respect by fear is not respect. Is it? It is merely fear as you state. A little fear of consequences if someone bullies you is different than people being fearful that you might hurt them.

As I wrote, I think that it is a difficult balance. A young boy just learning these defensive skills who gains over confidence and discloses that he is taking karate may end up being challenged to see what he can do. He loses and even more bullying will happen. If he beats the crap out of the bully to the point of serious injury, he may be blamed. Learning Karate, etc. and using it only as a last resort may be a better route. I suspect that some black belts are challenged by other guys who think that they can take them while others do not get challenged. It is the same mysterious situation as to why two kids who are basically the same (nerdy) only one is bullied. The other has social skills that gets the kid through.

Going to a school to "protect" a kid or group of kids is not productive in the long run. The kids need to learn how to protect themselves eventually. We all need to face bullies but we do not need to face excessive bullying in a short period. In some cases, an intermediary protective or change of environment may be needed. In the case of the young man who killed himself, it was a combination of factors. It was perhaps his own internal fear of facing others about his sexuality. Anyone who commits suicide has lost their balance on how to deal with issues.(well maybe not terminally ill people but generally)

[Long Duck Dong]

pathas, I am aware of the issues in other countries....... lol..... I am watching my own country fuck it all up in the name of rights and equal rights....... and that is empowering the bullies....

but I am aware that there is a difference between countries.......

the breaks and safe times I refered to, are like breaks from class and lunch times....... areas where the kids are more vunerable and its harder for the teachers to keep a eye on things.....
tho when I was at school, the teachers never went near the smoking area at school where the kids would go to smoke..... not cos they didn't want to deal with the issue..... but cos with 800 kids on the loose and 3 teachers on monitor duty, they simply lacked the ability to watch over things..... even the perfects ( head students who had the ability to deal with students as a liaison between the students and teachers ) either didn't give a rats ass, or were studying ....

and like you, I would get into more trouble for fighting back, than the bullies would get into for bullying students.....

as for the telling the teacher, well its a case of he said, they said.... something I learnt very quickly.... and the teachers were reluctant to act without witnesses to the issue as they would be seen to be taking sides and a good liar would hold the advantage over a innocent student.....

my bullying got to the point that it was happening in front of the teachers and as I was a problem student, it was easier for them to ignore the issue than deal with it....... if only they knew how dangerous that was, they would have acted immediately...... as there was times at school I was so down and depressed, I was armed with a blade and the mentality to use it......
thank god I never did..... for my sake and the sake of the other students......

most students that commit suicide had underlaying issues that are amped by the bullying, they can be issues at home, or mental / personal issues, that are not known about..... so when we say that we never thought about commiting suicide, we ignore the fact that others were dealing with issues, we were not......

[Long Duck Dong]

Going to a school to "protect" a kid or group of kids is not productive in the long run. The kids need to learn how to protect themselves eventually.

I was thinking things like chess groups etc....... safe times..... but yes, I know its not productive in the long run...... its a stop gap measure to distract the bullied from their issues..and buy some time......

I used the computer room at lunch times and after school ( when I was not in detention ) and in the long run, it led to my knowledge and skill with computers.... I was not allowed to do the computering courses at skill cos I was deemed * not suitable *..... so it has some benefits that can be tangible

[gooniegoogoo]

"On Sunday, hundreds of Rutgers students attended a vigil in honor of Tyler Clementi at the school’s New Brunswick campus. The 18-year-old leapt off the George Washington Bridge last week after his apparent roommate, Plainsboro resident Dharun Ravi, and Mr. Ravi’s friend Molly W. Wei of West Windsor, allegedly broadcast video of Mr. Clementi having a sexual encounter with another man." From The Princeton Packet

Regardless of the progress in terms of acceptance of gays and lesbians on Main Street and in the media, teens still seem to be tortured with the stigma and shame (or even the suspicion) of homosexuality. My 18-year-old daughter, who attended an arts magnet high school, in which at least half of the student body was openly gay or bi, is as unprejudiced as one can be in this regard. However, she constantly uses the word "gay" as an adjective to describe something as uncool or weak. Machoism is constantly glorified, while sensitivity, creativity, and an artistic sensibility are ridiculed. For a teenager, to be outed can be fatal.

A Texas teen was tormented by high school bullies. The boy's parents protested numerous times to the school administration. Yet, nothing was done about it. In the meantime, a girl in the same school was suspended simply because she pointed her index finger at a teacher, while the bullied, gay teen hung himself.

We must dedicate ourselves to helping educate the world that there should be no stigma in sexual orientation, and that all bullying should be stopped. Tyler Clementi was a gifted violinist. He may have turned out to be a genuine classical genius. We'll never know, because his roommate and a friend chose to use a video camera and the internet to pull a prank that shamed the budding musician into taking his own life.

I know you're with me on this one. Whatcha think?

It's a horrible thing really. A prank might be cool but nowadays they stick everything on the net and boom, it's there for all the world to see. Bullying is from all times but now with youtube you can take it so much further. Still, it says more about the stigma of being gay than anything else. That's where the real issues lie.

He could have kept his cool and force the uploader to remove it, take it to court, whatever. But apparently he was already so weakminded that he couldn't do that and just chose to kill himself instead. Very very sad.

[void()]

"He could have kept his cool and force the uploader to remove it, take it to court, whatever. But apparently he was already so weakminded that he couldn't do that and just chose to kill himself instead. Very very sad."

Who are you to have known his state of mind? I know you are not directly saying, yet enough is there to imply. Besides, his mental state ought to have been considered by the 'pranksters'.

Once a video of such nature is posted to the internet, even if removed, the damage is already done. There are words and actions once said and done that are irrevocable. As much as I champion gray areas, this is so.

Entrust the pranksters with actively earning money for H.I.V medicine and clean needles for junkies, maybe just flat out medical / psychological care for homosexuals. Get the responsible parties actively involved in atonement. And make it a public example. Why bother with responsibility if you've got no consequences? This is the message we send without teaching discipline by example.

[shortstroke]

hetero-
may God have mercy on your soul. tyler clementi was a human being. a young man who felt so ashamed and humiliated that he felt no other option but to take his own life. your view of this tragedy is a crime in itself. i feel embarrassed for you.

~D~

you shouldn't feel embarrased for hetero, what he says is the truth for all to see. tyler may have been the nicest person God ever created but, he had no inner strength. to kill yourself because you were embarrased by what some idiot did is crazy. if everyone who was ever embarrased were to go out on kill himself, the world would be left with only the idiots and the bullies. take you for instance. you feel embarrased because of what hetero said. when is your funeral planned?

[MarieDelta]

Just recieved this from a friend who is teaching school overseas and is unable to post here at the moment:


Marie,


I came across the following article and video today and I really would like to see it put on the forum at BS.com. Unfortunately, I can't access it from here in the Mid-Eastern country in which I live. Could you please post it, feel free to copy paste this note with it and post it on the forum.


As a teacher, I have counseled many gay and bi students over the years. I see first hand how it affects them. I also see how prevalent "gay bashing" terms are. It is acceptable in many cultures world-wide for kids to publicly "dis" gays and homosexuals. Most don't even know what bi is. I would encourage caring adults to get involved. View the following: http://www.nmha.org/go/information/get-info/children-s-mental-health/bullying-and-gay-youth and http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=592846987806&ref=mf.

I miss you and all my friends on BS.com. I am unable to access the site at all -- it is blocked here.


Thanks,


Dori


Some excerpts from the article-



Bullying in Schools: Harassment Puts Gay Youth at Risk
While trying to deal with all the challenges of being a teenager, gay/ lesbian/ bisexual/ transgender (GBLT) teens additionally have to deal with harassment, threats, and violence directed at them on a daily basis. They hear anti-gay slurs such as “homo”, “faggot” and “sissy” about 26 times a day or once every 14 minutes.[1] Even more troubling, a study found that thirty-one percent of gay youth had been threatened or injured at school in the last year alone![2]

Their mental health and education, not to mention their physical well-being, are at-risk.

How is their mental health being affected?

•Gay and lesbian teens are at high risk because ‘their distress is a direct result of the hatred and prejudice that surround them,’ not because of their inherently gay or lesbian identity orientation.[3]
•Gay, lesbian, and bisexual youth are two to three times more likely to attempt suicide than their heterosexual counterparts.[4]
How is their education being affected?
•Gay teens in U.S. schools are often subjected to such intense bullying that they’re unable to receive an adequate education.[5] They’re often embarrassed or ashamed of being targeted and may not report the abuse.
•GLBT students are more apt to skip school due to the fear, threats, and property vandalism directed at them.[6] One survey revealed that 22 percent of gay respondents had skipped school in the past month because they felt unsafe there.[7]
•Twenty-eight percent of gay students will drop out of school. This is more than three times the national average for heterosexual students.[8]
•GLBT youth feel they have nowhere to turn. According to several surveys, four out of five gay and lesbian students say they don’t know one supportive adult at school.[9]

What can we do to help?
Schools should offer a safe and respectful learning environment for everyone. When bullying is allowed to take place, it affects everyone. For every GLBT youth who reported being targeted for anti-gay harassment, four heterosexual youth reported harassment or violence for being perceived as gay or lesbian.[10] Also, we know that bullying was a contributing factor in the Columbine shootings and other school violence. Students, teachers, and school administrators who look the other way are contributing to the problem. In contrast, kids who said that they had a supportive faculty or openly gay staff member were more likely to feel as if they belong in their school.[11]

Help end bullying at your school with the following actions:
•Be alert to signs of distress.
•Work with student councils to have programs on respect, school safety, and anti-bullying.
•Ask school personnel to have a discussion at an assembly or an after school activity about gay prejudice.
•Help start a Gay, Lesbian and Straight Education Network (GLSEN) chapter at your local high school. Youth whose schools had these kinds of groups were less likely to have reported feeling unsafe in their schools.[12]
•Arrange for a group like GLSEN to present bullying prevention activities and programs at your school.
•Do encourage anyone who’s being bullied to tell a teacher, counselor, coach, nurse, or his or her parents or guardians. If the bullying continues, report it yourself.

[tenni]

you shouldn't feel embarrased for hetero, what he says is the truth for all to see. tyler may have been the nicest person God ever created but, he had no inner strength. to kill yourself because you were embarrased by what some idiot did is crazy. if everyone who was ever embarrased were to go out on kill himself, the world would be left with only the idiots and the bullies. take you for instance. you feel embarrased because of what hetero said. when is your funeral planned?

You may want to do a little more research on suicide. "no inner strength" is not the cause of suicide any more than cancer is caused by the person's lack of character. One of the main causes of suicide is Clinical Depression which is a mental illness when it reaches the chronic stage. Clinical Depression is not something that anyone would wish on to another person. A person who is Clinically Depressed may lose their sense of balance about life itself. They fall into a very dark place where they see only hopelessness. Whether Tyler had shown signs of depression before this incident or this incident was the cause is not known. The posting and outing on the internet must have been a huge issue for him. He may not have been rationale but reports also indicated that he had tried to resolve the room mate problem. There are several causes for Clinical Depression that you may want to read up on. Biochemical imbalances may also lead to Clinical Depression. Suicide is the second most frequent cause of death in teens and young adults. Only car accidents take more lives of adolescents and young adults than suicide.

[diB4u]

I don't call it bullying. It's hate crime.
Someone goes out in the streets calls someone else a "faggot" and punches them and it's hate crime. You do exactly the same thing in a school corridor and it's called bullying.
It's all hate crime and the police should be involved in more school issues, and schools should respond with equal severity.

d

I totally agree with you there, its not just bullying- which is awful in itself but its a hate crime and should be treated as such by the police and everyone that is supporting the victim of crime.

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Asshole alert, Ladies and Gentlemen. They Do walk amoungst us.....
Kisses to BHS, btw.
I only agreed with one part of HeteroFlexible's comment. And I have a feeling that this will be the only thing he and I ever will agree on......

Kids Will pick on those who they Think they can pick on, and its only the weaker ones that Will get picked on. Bullies of any kind are nothing but cowards who prey on those who they believe cant or wont fight back. I Do agree if more kids and young adults stood up for themselves there would be less bullying. Once a bully is confronted, be it physically or in cyber land, they will back off.
In school, I was picked one for a short time for not being what "Townies" thought that I should be. With me it was for ethnic reasons and ecomomical ones as well. It was a matter of Status. I was half-white, poor and female and hadnt been raised in the "Good ole boy" society all my life.
I came from the reservation and that automatically put me as low classed, and not as good as the full whites in town. My first day, some started in calling me a Prairie Nigger, and half-breed, ect and I took it for a while, not wanting to cause a rucus, but the second my Mother came to school a few weeks later to talk to the administrators about putting me up 2 grades, a kid pushed my little sis who had Downs syndrome, and spit on my Mother, they found out this Cat did indeed have claws. After I flattened a boy 3 years older than me and taller, they figured that they best leave me alone. I got suspended for that by the way, but I didnt care.
I wasnt putting up with their shit any longer, and they understood this finally. Took a couple of times in fighting back, but some respected me for it. And the funny thing was, it wasn't girls who treated me this way...it was boys.
If more kids did theis there Might be less physically bullying. I dont think bullying is anything to take your life over, but not everyones resolve is strong.
RIP to those that died, and I hope the rest have the strength to stand up and be themselves. :|
Mean Ole Cat

[Long Duck Dong]

you shouldn't feel embarrased for hetero, what he says is the truth for all to see. tyler may have been the nicest person God ever created but, he had no inner strength. to kill yourself because you were embarrased by what some idiot did is crazy. if everyone who was ever embarrased were to go out on kill himself, the world would be left with only the idiots and the bullies. take you for instance. you feel embarrased because of what hetero said. when is your funeral planned?

the idiots that would be left, would be the people with no idea.......

I have a mental illness, and I deal with suicidal thoughts on a daily basis... nothing to do with embarassment or lacking inner strength.......

what keeps me going strong is the fact that I can help educate the idiots in the world that have a closed mind to how suicide and suicidal tendencies and thoughts works, cos they are not a single level issue......

there was business execs that jumped from buildings during the stock market crash and they had a different mindset to tyler, and they have a different mindset to the teens that deal with extreme emotional / mental abuse ( and sexual abuse ) at home

even a lot of people that have attempted suicide apply their viewpoints as a whole to very other person that deals with suicide issues...... and that shows that they too can not think outside of their own opinion.....

I am now 40.... I have lost a number of people to suicide and the one thing I never do, is think I know why they did it and what was going thru their minds.... as I do not know...... all I know is the outcome......and what its like to be on the edge

[mikey3000]

Thus LDD, you of all people should show more compassion. I am very surprised by your stance. What we are doing by standing up to tormentors is trying to empower these "weaker" members of society, to try and give them the strength to learn how to stand on their own. The world is a totally different place then it was 30-40 years ago, sexuality was more cut and dry. You were either straight or in the closet. Plain and simple. Yes, bullies existed back then, but the rules were different then too. Not the same game anymore.

Your response really disturbs me, LDD.

Now as a parent of two young girls, I do agree that as a parent I MUST empower them to defend themselves and I teach them that, to defend themselves. They know how to fight. But I teach them to never throw the first punch, but to be sure to throw second and last punch. That comes from my eldest daughter being bullied for befriending a new girl at her school, a handicapped girl with Spina Bifida. See, I also teach my children to be compassionate to those less fortunate then them, to make friends with lonely kids who look like they need a friend. Unfortunately many kids won't make friends with these outcasts and are often cruel to them. I encourage my kids to make friends with all types of kids, especially those who look like they really need friends. By your thinking, and that of Hetero, the weak deserve to die. Shame!!!!! 30-40 years ago many under privilidged and handicapped people weren't even permitted to attend the same school as the rest of society. Should that still be allowed? Segregation for the weaker members of society? Let them die? As you so wonderfully said, nature has a way of dealing with the weakest members of society. Did you really say that then later post that you yourself have suicidal tendancies?

Man are you way off base here. Don't you yourself care for one of those weaker members of society? Why not just let nature deal with them so you can be with your partner? That is what you said was keeping you apart, no?

Man am I surprised at you.

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

take you for instance. you feel embarrased because of what hetero said. when is your funeral planned?

WTF? This was a really shitty thing to say! She was stating her opinion and it wasnt directed towards You. For someone who is fairly new thats a realll bad way to treat someone you dont know! We are all intitled to our opinions here WithOut being an ass about it.
Bad form, Stroke!
Cat

[Long Duck Dong]

my stance mikey is like my stance in the army..... people may want to stay home and cheer us on.... but we face the bullets......and its the same with kids getting bullied......

we can sit in a forum and post vids, or we can get right in beside the kids and be visible to them, beside them, supporting them.....

by agreeing with hetero, I am saying that there is many people that are not able to cope and never will be able to........ its something I hate but I am realistic in the fact they are seen as the weaker people...... and like nature, they do not survive long.......

I am not saying that they deserve to die, but we should stop playing the naturing type role when we do not actually get involved......and yes, some people deserve the freedom to * go *, making them stay is a torture.....as they are not coping with things and never will cope......

its the same rule of thumb that we should do our best to assist and help the ill medically etc.... but there comes a time where we need to let them die with dignity instead of making them suffer needlessly.......
its a dual edge sword, so i walk both paths not one.....

while I have assisted and aided so many people in life, I know in myself, when I get to the point that my ability to cope and handle life is gone, that I would need to hide in order to do what I would need to do...as others would work to stop me, thinking that they are doing the right thing.... but it would be prolonging the lifelong suffering for me.... and that would be cruel and unusual punishment for a person that has spent his own life helping others, while respecting their right to die with diginity

[mikey3000]

by agreeing with hetero, I am saying that there is many people that are not able to cope and never will be able to........ its something I hate but I am realistic in the fact they are seen as the weaker people...... and like nature, they do not survive long.......

I am not saying that they deserve to die, but we should stop playing the naturing type role when we do not actually get involved......and yes, some people deserve the freedom to * go *, making them stay is a torture.....as they are not coping with things and never will cope......

its the same rule of thumb that we should do our best to assist and help the ill medically etc.... but there comes a time where we need to let them die with dignity instead of making them suffer needlessly.......
its a dual edge sword, so i walk both paths not one.....

while I have assisted and aided so many people in life, I know in myself, when I get to the point that my ability to cope and handle life is gone, that I would need to hide in order to do what I would need to do...as others would work to stop me, thinking that they are doing the right thing.... but it would be prolonging the lifelong suffering for me.... and that would be cruel and unusual punishment for a person that has spent his own life helping others, while respecting their right to die with diginity

Who gives you, or anyone else for that matter, the right to determine who is fit enough to live? It is our duty as a civilized society to help those less capable and teach them the coping mechanisms that we may have learned through our own personal experiences to carry on and thrive. Let THEM choose when and how to die, yes, but we must give them all the proper tools and knowledge to make an informed decision.

Most civilians are not, never have been, and never will be in the service, so your philosophy regarding army life does not apply to main stream society.

Let me ask you this... How many children have you fathered and raised, loved and admired, prayed for with all your heart to be healthy and happy? Would you feel the same if your child had suicidal thoughts or just let them committ suicide? Wouldn't you want ANYONE to intervene and save the life of your beloved child?

I'm sorry LDD, but your attitude, and that of Hetero is very tragic and the best arguement I've seen so far for birth control. How sad.

[mikey3000]

Mikey, heres a fun fact for you: your a pussy and that is why you cannot understand my reasoning. The strong survive on their own accord, the weak perish on theirs. Cry me a bloody river you sissy.

Dude, I'd rather be a pussy than a fucked up, uneducated, backwater hick like you. Stick to your double-wide philosophies and your caveman reasonings dude, that'll get you real far.

[mikey3000]

Assumptions? LOL!!! I've passed through Labelle. No assumptions necessary, except for the double wide thing. Even that is probably out of your reach. Sorry 'bout that.

:cool:

[darkeyes]

Mikey, heres a fun fact for you: your a pussy and that is why you cannot understand my reasoning. The strong survive on their own accord, the weak perish on theirs. Cry me a bloody river you sissy.

I was raised to believe that the strong protect the weak. I live it too.. silly me...

..and if we allow the weak to perish, as they dissappear, then do not the strong become the weak? Funny thing.. but inevitable if we live by your philosophy...

[tenni]

Mikey, heres a fun fact for you: your a pussy and that is why you cannot understand my reasoning. The strong survive on their own accord, the weak perish on theirs. Cry me a bloody river you sissy.


Standing right beside the "weak" heteroFexible are the "perverted". Soon the strong determine that the peverted to be "weak" and need to be removed. As someone who has an interest in same sex play, you would be declared "perverted" by the strong. One on one, you might be able to fight but it wouldn't be one on one. It would be a crowd, a gang, a society that would declare you poor perverted bastard as WEAK. Kill him they would say. It would be done according to the laws of the strong without justice as it is to be in the law of the strong jungle creatures or Lord of the Flies. Conform to what is believed to be strong or perish.

As far as the language that you decided to use towards Mikey, you realize that you selected the words and language of "bullies".

[tenni]

no, curse words and such are just curse words. sticks and stones and all that.
Your point is political and would make a fine thread to discuss, start a new thread on that if you'd like. This is about whiney little bitch kids who didnt have the guts to fight back but did have the guts to kill themselves. Focus people!

You may want to watch this youtube video. Your views are quite wrong (whiny little bitch kids who didn't have the guts to fight back). It is about bullying about a person's sexuality via the internet. You have tried to make it about the weak versus the strong. If you are so strong, why do you not post a photo of your face on this website? Maybe, Clementi's roomie may spread the word for you.

One person commenting on this youtube video states "I really think that people who have access to someone's information think that it is their business". (therefore they have the right to spread it all over the internet etc.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYWXeUAM6ws&feature=player_embedded

[mikey3000]

:eek:
your above statement is a total fail
......its so stupid actually that I'm not even sure where to begin to answer you because I doubt you'll comprehend the answer. alas...I shall try

if the weak go away, then there is only the strong and the verying degrees of strong. Think of ancient Sparta. IE: Once you weed out the garbage and have only excellence, then you have the varying degrees of excellence. Some higher, some lower. Like Gold for example, 10K all the way up to 24K, but its still Gold. Of course the weakest of the strong are the new weak and what happens to them is their fate. Such is nature. Law of the jungle. Always has been, always will be. Your statement isnt the nature of things in regards to this topic, ie: Bullies and suicide. Here were talking about weakling little pussies who kill themselves rather than go berserk and start face smashing the ones who torment them. Nature gives us "fight or flight" as a survival mechanism, maybe you've heard of it. Both options work. But its not "fight or kill yourself". These kids were obviously unfit specimens and frankly, as mean and cruel as the adult world can be, not to mention tough and hard to earn a living, those losers are better off dead. They would never have made it in the real world. Sorry if that sounds mean, but its the truth.


LMFAO!!!!! YOU TROLL!!!!!!! You're fuckin Cliff Clavin!!!!!

In an episode of "Cheers," Cliff Clavin, the trivia-spouting, quirky, irksome mama's boy mailman is seated at the bar describing the buffalo theory to his buddy, Norm Peterson, the beer loving heavyweight bar stool sitting perpetual patron.

Cliff expounds his "Buffalo Theory" to Norm:

“Well, you see, Norm, it’s like this. A herd of buffalo can only move as fast as the slowest buffalo. And when the herd is hunted, it’s the slowest and weakest ones at the back that are killed first. This natural selection is good for the herd as a whole, because the general speed and health of the whole group keeps improving by the regular killing of the weakest members.

In much the same way, the human brain can only operate as fast as the slowest brain cells. Now, as we know, excessive intake of alcohol kills brain cells. But naturally, it attacks the slowest and weakest brain cells first. In this way, regular consumption of beer eliminates the weaker brain cells, making the brain a faster and more efficient machine.

And that, Norm, is why you always feel smarter after a few beers.”

Go have another beer, you fucking hick. LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL!!!!!!!

[DuckiesDarling]

But...but...but...Mikey at least Cliff was funny on Cheers...not so fucking funny here. Heteroflexible please go crawl back in your cave until your evolution is finished. If we are lucky maybe Darwin's theory will deal with you.

[Long Duck Dong]

Who gives you, or anyone else for that matter, the right to determine who is fit enough to live? It is our duty as a civilized society to help those less capable and teach them the coping mechanisms that we may have learned through our own personal experiences to carry on and thrive. Let THEM choose when and how to die, yes, but we must give them all the proper tools and knowledge to make an informed decision.

Most civilians are not, never have been, and never will be in the service, so your philosophy regarding army life does not apply to main stream society.

Let me ask you this... How many children have you fathered and raised, loved and admired, prayed for with all your heart to be healthy and happy? Would you feel the same if your child had suicidal thoughts or just let them committ suicide? Wouldn't you want ANYONE to intervene and save the life of your beloved child?

I'm sorry LDD, but your attitude, and that of Hetero is very tragic and the best arguement I've seen so far for birth control. How sad.

nobody gives me the right..... but I reserve the right over my own life only.... I can not speak for others....

and as for our duty as a civilised society to help people copy.... yes I agree..... but we use the same argument to justify our stance that we should deny enuthanasia to the terminally ill

my understanding of rights v's social understanding, is based around many different aspects of life..... as you say, many people do not serve in the armed forces, so my philosophy doesn't apply.......
so by that rule, my knowledge and understanding of dealing with suicidual thoughts and tendencies, also doesn't apply...... and that would make my own intimate knowledge and understanding invalid, and the same would appear to any person that is suicidual, their thoughts do not apply to the issue.
so people have have never dealt with suicidual thoughts and tendences .... does the same rule apply to them.... their philosophy should not apply either....and a lot of society do not suffer suicidual thoughts and tendencies..


I chose not to have kids, as i carry genetic mutations that I struggle with and they would be passed on to my kids..... my right to be a parent v's my right to choose not to have kids that could suffer the way I have.....
yet I have been a friend to many parents and their kids, and I view all kids the same, they have the rights to love, caring, protection and wellbeing....

do you apply your viewpoint about me, to people that have severely disabled children.... when they have enuf knowledge to know that they will have disabled children..... and are they too a prime example of the need for birth control.......

if my kids decided to commit suicide, I would hurt to hell and back, but as a person with dysthimia, I would understand why......

the life expectancy of people like me.... is 25-30 years.... I am 40..... and I live without the * knowledge * and help that people think people like me need......
we need to be allowed to find our way of coping, many experts try to tell us how to cope.... and deal with mental illness and suicidual tendencies.... without any understanding of what we deal with, only their text books and seminars and own opinions

[DuckiesDarling]

You know I used to think suicide was the ultimate fuck you to anyone who ever cared about you....until I reached a period in my life where I was suicidal myself. I realize the depths of despair and pain a body can reach and just say no more. I held on, in large part to LDD, and I like to think I'm part of the reason he manages to hang on now.

I believe, Mikey, that you once posted a thread about a friend of yours who committed suicide and I said much the same then that it was the ultimate fuck you to anyone that cared about him. I have since changed my stance and want you to know that I do understand why your friend did it and the sorrow for the family affected remains the same.

[12voltman59]

I have no doubt that Heteroflexible stands a good chance of being one of our perennial trolls----so much about his style--from the style of the name to the nature of the posts leads me to that conclusion.

I do wish that more of you would familiarize yourselves with the ways of the trolls so you don't get into pointless "discussions" with idiots and very quickly add them to your ignore lists.

[danreidbarmi]

Wow, kids, this has been one hellavah ride.

One thing I learned in my move from L.A. (where everyone was liberal) to Tennessee (where all POVs are represented) is that it's better to be in an environment where people don't all have the same belief systems.

I am, however, shocked to observe such devolved, yet Darwanistic viewpoints spouted on this site (you know what I'm talkin' about...). One would think that more of us who have struggled to achieve acceptance would be more compassionate for those who face not only sexual identity issues, but emotional, and mental health challenges.

Everyday, I learn more about the extreme dynamics of being human. How one man can fly a plane into a building feeling that his actions are sanctioned by his God, while another man can focus his webcam on his college roommate in a private moment of homosexual intimacy and broadcast it to the world, it's all inexplicable to me that we are capable of being so cruel to one another.

Yes, we've all gotta "man up." But, having suffered from mental illness, and being a bisexual man in a world that has no understanding of what that means, I can't set myself up as judge and jury for any other person.

Meanwhile, I'm killing off the weaker brain cells, hoping to wake up smarter in the morning.

Dan

[mikey3000]

You know I used to think suicide was the ultimate fuck you to anyone who ever cared about you....until I reached a period in my life where I was suicidal myself. I realize the depths of despair and pain a body can reach and just say no more. I held on, in large part to LDD, and I like to think I'm part of the reason he manages to hang on now.

I believe, Mikey, that you once posted a thread about a friend of yours who committed suicide and I said much the same then that it was the ultimate fuck you to anyone that cared about him. I have since changed my stance and want you to know that I do understand why your friend did it and the sorrow for the family affected remains the same.

Yes, I remember. It was only a few months ago, May 4th. And I was devastated. Not a day goes by that I don't think of him, and I still hurt. That's why suicide is such a touchy topic. I do value all life, and everyone is equally important. Some call me a pussy (LOL), but hey, too bad.

And I do remember your original comment about the ultimate fuck you. That stung, but I assumed you had your reasons. I'm glad you have changed your stance. I have too to some degree. I used to think that God never gave someone more than what they can handle, but now I know that to not be true. God doesn't give us anything, he allows us to choose our own path here on Earth to achieve our spiritual goals. But sometimes when a soul bites off more than they can chew, and ends up so alone and desolate, suicide is Gods way of calling us home for much needed rest, and will send us back to Earth to try again. None the less, I still feel it's all of our responsibility to help their fellow man achieve their goals, spiritually or otherwise. It's why we're here, to lift eachother up.
:(

[Long Duck Dong]

Wow, kids, this has been one hellavah ride.

One thing I learned in my move from L.A. (where everyone was liberal) to Tennessee (where all POVs are represented) is that it's better to be in an environment where people don't all have the same belief systems.

I am, however, shocked to observe such devolved, yet Darwanistic viewpoints spouted on this site (you know what I'm talkin' about...). One would think that more of us who have struggled to achieve acceptance would be more compassionate for those who face not only sexual identity issues, but emotional, and mental health challenges.

Everyday, I learn more about the extreme dynamics of being human. How one man can fly a plane into a building feeling that his actions are sanctioned by his God, while another man can focus his webcam on his college roommate in a private moment of homosexual intimacy and broadcast it to the world, it's all inexplicable to me that we are capable of being so cruel to one another.

Yes, we've all gotta "man up." But, having suffered from mental illness, and being a bisexual man in a world that has no understanding of what that means, I can't set myself up as judge and jury for any other person.

Meanwhile, I'm killing off the weaker brain cells, hoping to wake up smarter in the morning.

Dan

I am reminded of something I heard once as a counsellors conference and it was a american speaker....

he said " we are fools to our own wisdom, we are the ones that use the term * man up * but we use our own foundation as the level as we have no understanding of what it is like for others
we can be the business CEO's of large companies and we will say * men up * to those that will struggle with handling doing the shopping
we are fools in that we hang on to the belief that there is only one way and that is up and that is the opinion available to people that deal with mental illnesses
YET we, ourselves, move up, down and sideways in our own lives.

when we deal with emotional and mental stress, we have a further downward range of movement, we are well adjusted people, people that are depressed and * in the dumps * have a limited downward range, some have hit rock bottom and are digging.

24/7 broken heart... think about it, get a feeling for that in your mind, a never ending broken heart, with the medication that can mask the symptoms for a time. that is the reality for people that have suicidal inclinations.
then you add in the other traumatic experiences such as a broken heart, daily stress and a myriad of issues

that is why people take their own lives, that is why people die and that is why depression and suicide is so misunderstood, we, of the clear minds, know that we are dealing with those with clouded and obscured minds, so why do we ignore that fact ?

why have we as counsellors become so ignorant of the reality of depression and suicide ? it is because we can have clear minds again, we can clear our minds and move forward, and we forget the clouded minds that our clients can not clear.

THAT is why so many counsellors fail to address their clients needs and desires, we clear our minds and move on and we think because we can do it, they can too.

Not all depressed and suicidal people can be helped or *saved* it is not possible, so enlighten families of those people why they took their own lives, remove the blame, remove the idea that they failed the person, remove the idea that more could be done

without the ability to be like jesus and turn a muddy swamp into a crystal clear pond, we are people that are working to help pull the weeds from a stream and move boulders. NOT all people are swamps, not all are streams
assist people, aid them, counsel them, advise them, listen to them but remember, remember, remember not all of them have the ability to become the clear pond, do not judge them harshly.

society will judge them harshly, and judge you harshly too, but society has the ability to clear their minds of the mud and they forget that others don't, we should not forget that, we must not forget that, we shall not forget that or we will become useless as counsellors as we have lost sight of the nature of our clients.

thank you.... and now I will open the floor to replies, opinions and demands that I be fired for speaking the truth


it was a american speaker, I have never met a nz'er with the balls to stand up at a conference and state the truth..... but then again, it was a american clinical psychologist that diagnosised my dysthimia when many nz specialists had failed to do so

[void()]

Yesterday was a terrible day at work for me. Today may be as well.

There is a problem somewhere in my brain or mentality which mixes things up. Co-workers in camaraderie oft joke and make light of one another. Nothing is meant in calling another a lazy s.o.b, when the other is probably the hardest worker on site for example.

My brain though hears that and instantly starts painting the worst images. The company is also looking into replacing the wooden bins with all plastic ones. It would be more affordable in the long run.

And my brain says, "if they go to plastic you'll be out a job. In fact you only have this job as charity. Any monkey can saw boards, nail up boxes." And if I foul up sawing a board in half lengthwise, the hell created by such a brain.

While I am learning to drive a forklift there's even more pitfalls. I tried driving one yesterday that was a p.o.s even by the guys who've driven them for years. I flummoxed the driving terribly.

I feel like some obsoleted and worthless clown. Never have had aptitude for being mechanically inclined, not a big old rough and tough boy. Cars don't 'get me going', nor sports, hunting. And so I really lack common ground to engage in conversation.

As I said in another thread, I consider myself socially autistic. Wound up snapping at my wife on the way home. She was discussing how her day went with fixing our computers. It all became annoying gnat speak to me.

I apologized but yet the damage was done. Not sure it's fair to say I hate or love myself. Only indifference left and a sense of feeling useless enough to swing by a rope made by my own hand. And to top it off, I'm called weak.

"Here, you want to call me a pussy, have a load of my demons and you keep on keeping on." I face this struggle everyday for love, hope. Both seem to wear thin when nothing ever changes, or at least doesn't seem to.

Oh, and now I have a sense of someone just outside of sight. But no one is there. Depression bites, wish it would stop.

[darkeyes]

Depression bites, wish it would stop.

I'm sorry Voidie.. as a recurrent sufferer I know the desperation and isolation felt.. kissie :) Difference is, I just don't want to speak to or see anyone.. life seems so pointless and hopeless... but it isn't, and in time we pull through.. :)

[darkeyes]

Your assuming lots of false things again my pussy-esque friend, but what do I expect from a douchebag Canadian? :rolleyes: silly me. And quoting a show that hasnt been on the air for gods know how long? sorry man, never watched it so most of your joke is lost, but good try. Maybe Cheers is still on in primetime in Ontario! hahahahaha. What about Alf and Miami Vice? What night n time is that on? :tong:

*sigh*, the sad truth..."mikey".....(you disgrace both of us with that handle, seriously) your a loser, you know nothing about me but thanks to your emotional and defensive retorts I know plenty about you. Your a little pussy and you love to waste forum bandwidth for starters. The bandwidth thing really is unforgivable! But, I found a way to resolve our disagreement. You think those pussies who killed themselves (all suicide except for Sepuku is weaksauce) are right for doing so and not pussy losers? Ok, Technically....doucher...I'm being mean to you, I'm cyber bullying you in a way as we are arguing on a forum, akin to the special olympics is importance when you get right down to it, but I'm being mean nonetheless....so....bullying victim...are you feeling twitchy yet? Picked up a knife yet? Gonna off yourself? OOOOOOOoooor are you thinking..."fuck this heteroflexible guy, I'm not killing myself because he heckles me online, who the hell does that!?!?! fuck him and the horse he rode in on, I'm gonna write something mean back and imply he's a drunk hick and troll"......? Because if you are thinking like that....you have ALREADY PROVED MY POINT! :bigrin::tongue:;):tong::)
Now, If you kill yourself, well I suppose I have egg on my face. :(

Your move douchebag.

Seems 2 me that your chops are covered in egg ne way.. self administered by talkin such drivel..;)

[rissababynta]

Your assuming lots of false things again my pussy-esque friend, but what do I expect from a douchebag Canadian? :rolleyes: silly me. And quoting a show that hasnt been on the air for gods know how long? sorry man, never watched it so most of your joke is lost, but good try. Maybe Cheers is still on in primetime in Ontario! hahahahaha. What about Alf and Miami Vice? What night n time is that on? :tong:

*sigh*, the sad truth..."mikey".....(you disgrace both of us with that handle, seriously) your a loser, you know nothing about me but thanks to your emotional and defensive retorts I know plenty about you. Your a little pussy and you love to waste forum bandwidth for starters. The bandwidth thing really is unforgivable! But, I found a way to resolve our disagreement. You think those pussies who killed themselves (all suicide except for Sepuku is weaksauce) are right for doing so and not pussy losers? Ok, Technically....doucher...I'm being mean to you, I'm cyber bullying you in a way as we are arguing on a forum, akin to the special olympics is importance when you get right down to it, but I'm being mean nonetheless....so....bullying victim...are you feeling twitchy yet? Picked up a knife yet? Gonna off yourself? OOOOOOOoooor are you thinking..."fuck this heteroflexible guy, I'm not killing myself because he heckles me online, who the hell does that!?!?! fuck him and the horse he rode in on, I'm gonna write something mean back and imply he's a drunk hick and troll"......? Because if you are thinking like that....you have ALREADY PROVED MY POINT! :bigrin::tongue:;):tong::)
Now, If you kill yourself, well I suppose I have egg on my face. :(

Your move douchebag.

Ok...I think this fight is really stupid and I feel a bit bad that Mikey is getting hit so hard...buuuut...I have to admit that this post did kind of make me chuckle a little...don't know why

[diB4u]

Well said! has everyone or the few forgotten what this thread was about? bullying and people killing themselves because of social issolation because of their sexuality.


Enough of the snide comments, lets all get back to the original poster!

:bigrin:

[dafydd]

Your assuming lots of false things again my pussy-esque friend, but what do I expect from a douchebag Canadian? :rolleyes: silly me. And quoting a show that hasnt been on the air for gods know how long? sorry man, never watched it so most of your joke is lost, but good try. Maybe Cheers is still on in primetime in Ontario! hahahahaha. What about Alf and Miami Vice? What night n time is that on? :tong:

*sigh*, the sad truth..."mikey".....(you disgrace both of us with that handle, seriously) your a loser, you know nothing about me but thanks to your emotional and defensive retorts I know plenty about you. Your a little pussy and you love to waste forum bandwidth for starters. The bandwidth thing really is unforgivable! But, I found a way to resolve our disagreement. You think those pussies who killed themselves (all suicide except for Sepuku is weaksauce) are right for doing so and not pussy losers? Ok, Technically....doucher...I'm being mean to you, I'm cyber bullying you in a way as we are arguing on a forum, akin to the special olympics is importance when you get right down to it, but I'm being mean nonetheless....so....bullying victim...are you feeling twitchy yet? Picked up a knife yet? Gonna off yourself? OOOOOOOoooor are you thinking..."fuck this heteroflexible guy, I'm not killing myself because he heckles me online, who the hell does that!?!?! fuck him and the horse he rode in on, I'm gonna write something mean back and imply he's a drunk hick and troll"......? Because if you are thinking like that....you have ALREADY PROVED MY POINT! :bigrin::tongue:;):tong::)
Now, If you kill yourself, well I suppose I have egg on my face. :(

Your move douchebag.

"Your move douchebag" ?
What, are you 6?
can we move on...

[void()]

I'm sorry Voidie.. as a recurrent sufferer I know the desperation and isolation felt.. kissie :) Difference is, I just don't want to speak to or see anyone.. life seems so pointless and hopeless... but it isn't, and in time we pull through.. :)

Yep. I feel like climbing back into a shell, too. And yes, we do pull through. Just tired of always having to fight. Oh well, I rejected a 74,000 pound load of apples today. Nothing great but at least customers won't get moldy applesauce. If I think of it, might have saved a dozen babies lives. Go superhero, me! :)