He says he's a homosexual, but...

[Gardenia]

I think I might have something about to happen with a man. I consider him bisexual. He doesn't. Although he says he always known he can have sex with both men and women, he says he's a gay man. A homosexual. And this I have severe difficulties in coping with this. How DARE he try and getting close to women while at the say time declare that he is a homosexual?


He says his identity - as a gay man, that is - isn't based on sex, but on feelings. He has never been in love with a woman. He did have girlfriends when he was young, but not after as a young adult falling in love with a man. Since then there has been a couple of episodes with women but he describes them in pretty demeaning terms, like they were accidents or mistakes.


So there's this intelligent and attractive man, and I'm thinking "too bad he's gay". And then he informed me he did try to date women a couple of years ago, and I nearly fell off the chair. Why does a gay man try dating women? He says he wanted to know if he could develop true feelings for a woman.


Currently we're kind of - there hasn't been any formal dating, but I do feel he's teasing me. Feeling my interest. Checking it out, checking himself out at the same time. And I find it SO hurtful that he still calls himself a gay man. If I fall in love witha a bisexual man and he doesn't love me, okay that's bad. But if I allow myself to fall in love with a homosexual I'm an f*****g idiot if I ever believe there will come something out of it.


So I would wish he'd change that label before I'd allow something to happen. He won't switch label until AFTER something has happened.


I call myself bisexual although I have never loved and never had sex with a woman. I know I have the capacity, that's enough. I don't have to "try" to know. I'm not looking for casual sex, and until I fall in love... but for him, he needs an earthquake to stop saying he's gay. I feel hurt. I see him as a bisexual man, and it would be so much easier for me if he stopped claiming to be a homosexual.


Can anyone relate to this?

[onesucker4u]

Relax and accepthim. He'll become whatever he becomes. Enjoy him as a gay man. I would.

[Gardenia]

Relax and accepthim. He'll become whatever he becomes.

I guess so. The question is how much I want to invest, not knowing what he will become.


Enjoy him as a gay man. I would.

But would you also enjoy a woman as a lesbian?

[elian]

Hello,

Emotional desire and physical desire are two different aspects of relationships. I think a lot of people experiment with the same sex at least once in their life, just to see what the experience is like. If he has always identified as gay, it would make sense to me that he might try dating a female once to see if it is something he would be interested in.

I'll only say that until I saw this website I never SERIOUSLY considered bisexuality. I spent all of the time in my personal relationships trying to see if I could be "happy enough" to marry a woman, or "happy enough" to be with a man. It was very confusing to be fixated on men for a long time, be all about the men - only to see a video of a woman pleasuring herself and be just as aroused. I was so focused on EITHER/OR that it was painful and confusing to think of something different.

In the end though, that's was the only way I could reconcile my feelings, to understand that I loved BOTH.

Contrary to popular belief it doesn't make getting a date easier - at least here in the US when I admit to potential dates that I am bisexual they usually immediately become suspicious. They can understand STRAIGHT and they understand GAY, but what is BI?

I love people for who they are, regardless of what is between their legs - that is my definition of being bi.

It's not an easy concept for some people to understand or admit. Maybe he has had a bad experience with females, or maybe he genuinely feels no attraction to them.

Maybe your friend has a different experience but if he says he can have sex with a woman I wonder how emotionally distant he can be.. It seems strange to me because speaking as a man, to have sex with a female I need to be connected to the moment and have feelings for the person. I've tried forcing it and it physically just would not work because of nervousness, etc.

Unrequited love sucks, I feel for you if your friend just doesn't reciprocate your feelings. If he truly doesn't have any attachment to women in the same way you feel for him it can be difficult. I do have lesbian friends, gay friends, bi friends - as long as they are happy then I am happy. It's hard to imagine telling someone not to love, or thinking less of them for who they fall in love with.

[tenni]

Stop thinking that he will be what you want him to be. He is who and what he says that he is. As a bisexual woman would you accept a hetero man asking you to admit that you are hetero? If you want a physical and emotional m/f partner relationship with him, be prepared for him to want sex with other men. Maybe it will work but only if you accept him as a gay man. He may never be emotionally in love with you. Is this what you really want?

[Gearbox]

Currently we're kind of - there hasn't been any formal dating, but I do feel he's teasing me. Feeling my interest. Checking it out, checking himself out at the same time. And I find it SO hurtful that he still calls himself a gay man. If I fall in love witha a bisexual man and he doesn't love me, okay that's bad. But if I allow myself to fall in love with a homosexual I'm an f*****g idiot if I ever believe there will come something out of it.
Yes that does sound hurtful, and you would be silly to fall for this man. Not just because he calls himself gay and his definition of it is pretty confusing, but also because your not even really dating either.
Your his guinea pig! He's been honest about that. He wants to know IF he can have feelings for a woman, and you come along with a lab tag on. Your perfect! You want him to have feelings for you.

As malicious as that sounds, I very much doubt that he realises it. You can't really blame him for trying to explore his sexuality, but you can blame him for using the label 'gay' AND flirting with you.
If you haven't already, tell him how this is going for YOU! Pull the plug on the teasing crap, and get some feedback on the 'how gay he feels about you today' and the 'are we dating or what?' departments.

[DuckiesDarling]

Yes that does sound hurtful, and you would be silly to fall for this man. Not just because he calls himself gay and his definition of it is pretty confusing, but also because your not even really dating either.
Your his guinea pig! He's been honest about that. He wants to know IF he can have feelings for a woman, and you come along with a lab tag on. Your perfect! You want him to have feelings for you.

As malicious as that sounds, I very much doubt that he realises it. You can't really blame him for trying to explore his sexuality, but you can blame him for using the label 'gay' AND flirting with you.
If you haven't already, tell him how this is going for YOU! Pull the plug on the teasing crap, and get some feedback on the 'how gay he feels about you today' and the 'are we dating or what?' departments.

Gotta say I totally agree with this.

[Gardenia]

A major part of the confusion is that we live quite a far distance away. Communication is harder when you don't meet eye to eye - we have met, but it will be some time until next opportunity. I do need to pull the breaks, until we have a chance to meet again. All these confusing things just eats me, when I sit by myself wondering what he really meant by this and that.

Interesting that so many here assumes that he's trying to get me just for sex. He's more of the faithful mr good guy type, plus we're friends. He won't try and get me in bed just for kicks.



Stop thinking that he will be what you want him to be. He is who and what he says that he is. As a bisexual woman would you accept a hetero man asking you to admit that you are hetero? If you want a physical and emotional m/f partner relationship with him, be prepared for him to want sex with other men. Maybe it will work but only if you accept him as a gay man. He may never be emotionally in love with you. Is this what you really want?

A hetero man wanting me to claim I'm hetero is not a good parallel. You asking a lesbian who is coming on to you to accept that she's bi OTOH is.

Actually, it's me who is into open relationships. He never had need for multiple partners before, why should it be different with me IF he decides I'm what he wants. It's more probable that it would be me who slightly reluctantly would have to go back to monogamous relationships.

I know there are bi men and women who claim they need sex with the gender they aren't married to. My take on this is that probably most of these people - not all, but most* - married someone of opposite sex although their primary urge is for the same sex. And so they are trying to get what they need without having to divorce, and often without upsetting, their spouse - that's called the "low down" phenomenon, if I'm not mistaken. Is this view uncommon at this website? As someone who has spent quite some time in the LGBT community (I have gay, bi, and transgendered friends, and I spent quite some time actively searching for a girlfriend) this IMHO is a quite natural view. It is a phase that many gay men and lesbians have been through. The myth of bisexuality being "just a phase" comes from the fact that for many homosexuals, it is exactly that - a phase in coming to terms with who they are. As a consequence, many of them refuse to believe that there are true bisexuals. That it's a stage to pass through, for each and everyone who claims to be bi.




Your his guinea pig! He's been honest about that. He wants to know IF he can have feelings for a woman, and you come along with a lab tag on. Your perfect! You want him to have feelings for you.

This does ring a bell - although you put it a little maliciously. You are expressing my reaction when I heard he had been trying to date women but they wouldn't go on a second date because of his history. That he hadn't been fair to them, that he had done it for the wrong reasons - just experienting. We've talked lengthy about it, and in the end he convinced me that isn't so.


I was hoping for comments from someone who has made the journey from gay to bi. That's a coming out process, too! I someone knows about books, articles etc. on the subject of gays or lesbians coming out as bi I'd love to hear about it. The only example I know of is Tom Robinson, who incidently fought long and hard against the "bi" label before embracing it.


-----
* Before anyone feels I am denying who they are, please note I am not saying this is true for everyone in that situation.

[Long Duck Dong]

been sitting here reading and reading your posts, gardenia....

I see things in your friend like his need to truly know himself other than just say he is attracted to males, and hes right, there is far more to people than just a sexual attraction..... and for a lot of bisexuals, their sexuality is fluid, so there is the possibility that his sexuality is not 100% gay but 20% bisexual / 80% gay and its the slight shift between the two that is causing him to question things......

there are times that having a friend help him can be of more benefit to him than people that reject him based around his past....... I was lucky in the fact that it was my sister that helped me with my own personal struggle, not with my sexuality as much, but a asexual nature that was shifting in me...and there were many times that I turned to her as she saw things in me that others did not and she helped me explain them to the experts... and make sense of things myself......

even in the role of being a friend, you can help your friend learn more about himself and if it is possible for him to develop a connection with a female, even as just a friend..... and many of us know that having somebody hold our hands as we walked the unknown paths, is better than stumbling around in the dark blindly and having people constantly getting in our way and tripping us up....

[bib4u]

Many post tend to be about what a person could be, instead of what that person is. If's it's little more than casual sex, it usually doesn't matter!

Falling in love with anyone will be extremely demanding, what is the point of adding additional stress to the mix, when you already know what "he" believes?

These psychological essays rarely give us an understand or even an answer...be decisive! You time is the most precious thing you have, use it to your benefit.

[Gardenia]

I'm not asking for advice on how to act, really. I have friends for that. And they know more of the story than you do here. (Of course I can't stop people from having opinions.) I was asking for someone who recognises the situation and/or knows anything good written. Other people might not feel books and other people's stories are of any help. They should feel free not to read such things.

[elian]

It is a phase that many gay men and lesbians have been through. The myth of bisexuality being "just a phase" comes from the fact that for many homosexuals, it is exactly that - a phase in coming to terms with who they are. As a consequence, many of them refuse to believe that there are true bisexuals. That it's a stage to pass through, for each and everyone who claims to be bi.

Hmm, you may be on to something here. I can only say I used to think I was gay, now bi - it was a process of having enough experiences with both genders, and having a boyfriend who has caring enough to show me that not all encounters with men are one night stands. I'm sorry I don't have any reading that I can recommend to you that specifically deals with "coming out" as bisexual. There was one book that helped me break a cycle of self-loathing related to my feelings toward same sex, but it had more to do with changing my whole outlook rather than just my sexuality.

I finally just got tired of wasting the energy, if loving men makes me happy then I can either accept it and be happy or reject it and suffer. In the time that passed I was old enough to make my own decisions. There was a little bit of fear and weariness, after having worked so accept myself as gay to also understand being attracted to women - after a while I just gave up on the labels and decided to just be myself.

[Gardenia]

been sitting here reading and reading your posts, gardenia....

I see things in your friend like his need to truly know himself other than just say he is attracted to males, and hes right, there is far more to people than just a sexual attraction..... and for a lot of bisexuals, their sexuality is fluid, so there is the possibility that his sexuality is not 100% gay but 20% bisexual / 80% gay and its the slight shift between the two that is causing him to question things......

there are times that having a friend help him can be of more benefit to him than people that reject him based around his past....... I was lucky in the fact that it was my sister that helped me with my own personal struggle, not with my sexuality as much, but a asexual nature that was shifting in me...and there were many times that I turned to her as she saw things in me that others did not and she helped me explain them to the experts... and make sense of things myself......

even in the role of being a friend, you can help your friend learn more about himself and if it is possible for him to develop a connection with a female, even as just a friend..... and many of us know that having somebody hold our hands as we walked the unknown paths, is better than stumbling around in the dark blindly and having people constantly getting in our way and tripping us up....

*nod* It could be that this is what I am to him... a woman who wouldn't reject him for his past, an example and if there's one there could be others. I told him he should date bi women :p A friend who helped him sort out these women's reactions. Quite possible. (I'll find out. In time. I don't want to lose him as a friend, I won't make a scene.)

Just what do you mean by some people's sexuality being fluid?

[FinkDoodle]

How is his personal opinion of himself any of your business ?

[Gardenia]

How is his personal opinion of himself any of your business ?

This isn't a nice and friendly place, is it.

[Gardenia]

If you're bisexual then your sexuality is going to be fluid and your attractions are going to change. Sometimes you may prefer one gender over the other sexually but you'll never completely stop being sexually attracted to both genders If you're actually gay/lesbian or heterosexual then you're monosexual and your sexuality is not fluid at all.


While I was only aware of my attraction to men, I wasn't always into the same type of men. After a little something with a very tall man, I kept looking for tall men for ages. It took me a long time to find out that I'm not really more attracted too exceptionally tall men than to others.

Others might only be attracted to skinny people, later to understand the charm of a couple of extra pounds to hold on to.

So if you have the capacity of attraction for both sexes, I don't see this "fluidity" as anything more special than the variation in other people's attractions. It's a variety within your range, no more no less.

Then there of course are those you will be fixed on one type their entire life. Rod Stewart will never date a brunette. But when I analyze what I've been attracted to so far, I can not for my life distinguish a "type". The only trend I see that after an experience that was important to me, I subconciously looked for men with similar looks. (In women though there are types I prefer. Weird.)

[elian]

Since we are talking about attraction, I oogle men about the same way that other guys are constantly looking at women, but my attraction to women I can't always clearly define. There ARE certain women I'm attracted to but I can't quite tell you what the attributes are. I always figured that Jerri Ryan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeri_Ryan) would be fun to talk to at a party, and not necessarily for all the spandex they made her wear on Star Trek Voyager..

Margaret Atwood (http://www.pbs.org/moyers/faithandreason/watch_atwood.html) might be fun to talk to as well..

[tenni]

This isn't a nice and friendly place, is it.

Sorry if we are coming across as nice and friendly. It is unclear what you want. After your OP, you state that you want to know if there are other men who thought themselves gay and began to see themselves as possibly bisexual. Several men have done that and posted their concern. Most want to explore actual physical sex with women because they did not have sex with a woman before. In your friend's case, he has had sex but no emotional attachment. You write that he did not particularly find the sexual experiences pleasant with women.

I do not find a clear reason why you are investing your energy with him. Can you separate your emotions and just be a friend with him and hold no greater expectation? Would you be his fuck bud?

[DuckiesDarling]

Sorry if we are coming across as nice and friendly. It is unclear what you want. After your OP, you state that you want to know if there are other men who thought themselves gay and began to see themselves as possibly bisexual. Several men have done that and posted their concern. Most want to explore actual physical sex with women because they did not have sex with a woman before. In your friend's case, he has had sex but no emotional attachment. You write that he did not particularly find the sexual experiences pleasant with women.

I do not find a clear reason why you are investing your energy with him. Can you separate your emotions and just be a friend with him and hold no greater expectation? Would you be his fuck bud?

What I'm reading is that he is trying to see if it's possible to have an EMOTIONAL attachment to a female as he has with males. Yes, I agreed with Gear that Gardenia is his guinea pig but it wasn't meant to be malicious. The bottom line is what he identifies himself as is conflicting to her. But at the end of the day it's how we identify to ourselves that matter not what anyone in a forum says or anyone in the relationship. You can't make him say he's bisexual when he identifies as homosexual. He is trying to see if there is anything out there he still needs to experience. But he's not willing to lose his identity until there is something that fits him more accurately. This is not about fuck buds or any other sexual situation, it's about an EMOTIONAL attachment as was clearly posted by the OP. Gardenia, you need to talk to the man, not to us. You need to listen to the man, not to us. You need to have a conversation in which ideas flow both ways, listen and talk. Learn from each other and maybe you will not find yourself being a fool for falling in love with someone who can't fall in love with you. It's been posted many times on here that life is not just sex, at the end of the day what do you talk about? What dreams do you share? What do you want to accomplish? Those are parts of a RELATIONSHIP and that's not what you have at this point, but you can get there, if you want to. Good luck.

[tenni]

"He says he wanted to know if he could develop true feelings for a woman."

You are correct DD. He wants to see if he can develop true feelings for a woman but this woman may be wiser to look at him as a fuck bud to protect her own emotions. Look at him as a friend. Don't worry about his label. It is up to her to talk it over with him.

The gay men who have been bi curious and posted on various sites that I have read have only been interested in the physical side of sex with women. None were initially interested in emotional attachment as in boyfriend girlfriend. He has explored the physical side of m/f sex. Does he enjoy the physical side of sex with women? It does not seem so from what she has written.

[FinkDoodle]

"friendly place" notwithstanding . . you state "How DARE he try and getting close to women while at the say time declare that he is a homosexual?" . .

I counter that with How dare YOU dictate what another human being Can or Cannot do with his own life. You're not in his skin . . you have no idea what he's feeling or what demons he's wrestling with. You're only selfishly concerned about your own feelings and whether or not you'll get hurt. Maybe if you actually tried empathizing with him a little you'd be somewhat less confused.

[Gardenia]

In that you do have a point, byronvench. BUT the same thing has already been said in the thread - his identity is his business of course, what I can blame him for is flirting with me AND claiming to be gay. Has already been said - and in a more balanced way than a oneliner smartass comment.

Enough of smartass comments.

Goodbye.

Mods: please close and/or delete this thread.

Thank you.

[bityme]

This is a very interesting thread, but I do find some of the responses confusing.

If I understand your question correctly, you have a developing relationship with a gentleman who identifies himself as "gay" and you are "hurt" because he won't change that self identity to Bi." It appears to me that the primary basis for being "hurt" is that if the relationship fails you would be able to accept rejection by or breaking up with a "Bi" man, but not a "gay" man. As I read it, your concern is about you, not about him and you want him to change "for your sake" before you become more involved. You are not satisfied with his offer to change his label after successful progression further into your relationship.


I call myself bisexual although I have never loved and never had sex with a woman. I know I have the capacity, that's enough. I don't have to "try" to know. I'm not looking for casual sex, and until I fall in love... but for him, he needs an earthquake to stop saying he's gay. I feel hurt. I see him as a bisexual man, and it would be so much easier for me if he stopped claiming to be a homosexual.

Your personal view seems to be that "bisexuality" is determined based on a person's capacity as opposed to their desire, practice, compulsion, or preference. His view may be different. We come to our own self identification through our thoughts, education, and experience. As individuals, we continue to evolve over our lifetime.

You really shouldn't allow your psyche to be so deeply affected by how he identifies himself. The important thing should be how he identifies the two of you together. At this stage, it would appear that it is as "friends." Another stage might bring the identification of "lovers" which might also trigger a change in his self-identification. You really can't expect him to change his self-identification on the basis that he might have the capacity to be your "lover" because most people make such changes based on experiences over time.


I know there are bi men and women who claim they need sex with the gender they aren't married to. My take on this is that probably most of these people - not all, but most* - married someone of opposite sex although their primary urge is for the same sex. And so they are trying to get what they need without having to divorce, and often without upsetting, their spouse - that's called the "low down" phenomenon, if I'm not mistaken. Is this view uncommon at this website?

Yes, this view is uncommon. Most married bisexuals have their primary attraction to their mate and a secondary attraction to the gender opposite their mate, although even those attractions continue to evolve over time. That is just part of the ebb and flow of life.

Things might be easier for you if you just consider the gentleman as a friend, let your friendship evolve into whatever it will and enjoy the good times.

Pappy

[hikerinthebuff]

Sex and feelings don't ever go hand in hand so we have to winnow the truth of crotch from the truth of heart.

It's hard to understand our hearts, plus if you aren't straight but bi, gay, les, or something else, cause you have besides to fight people mainstream . So it's good to have some single rules to wade through confusion whatever it shows up in your path.

Elian and Pappy gave two tips to get myself and Gardenia on the right way :

I love people for who they are, regardless of what is between their legs - that is my definition of being bi. Elian.
Things might be easier for you if you just consider the gentleman as a friend, let your friendship evolve into whatever it will and enjoy the good times. Bityme.

Sharing a whole life needs way more than good sex on bed, as for instance to accept our mate as he or she really is, what he or she feels and what he or she needs, something that only by emphathy we can reach.