Transwoman Boxer :Fallon Fox

[tenni]

This is a bit sparky(blunt crude and probably offensive to transpeople) man speak with Joe Rogan talking but does he have a point?
Should a transwoman (born male) be permitted to box a CIS woman (born as a female)?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6_7BOGUXHM&feature=player_embedded

[transcendMental]

Thanks for the warning: I did not watch the video.

I offer two points to consider on this question.

The first is that female hormones and male hormone suppressants act to decrease muscle mass to female levels. I think I read that being on hormones for about two years is enough to do this. I know that at least collegiate sports organizations have come to the conclusion that muscle mass levels in transitioned transwomen (regardless of surgical status) are equivalent to that of women, and so transwomen are permitted to compete on women's teams. The same holds for transitioned transmen (as male hormones increase muscle mass to masculine levels). I think there's some discussion going on in Olympic circles these days.

The second is that the only other rational objection I can think of to allowing a transwoman to box a natal woman (aside from the fact that I think boxing generally should not be allowed) is the fact that someone who grew up with a male hormonal makeup had a male growth spurt and is likely bigger than many women. But I would imagine that women's boxing would be divided into weight classes like for men.

So are there good reasons (again, aside from general distaste for boxing) to prohibit two people in the same weight class with similar muscle mass levels to box?

[tenni]

Hi TM
Thanks for responding even without viewing the video. Let me fill you in on Roigan's position.

The physical appearance of Ms Fox is muscular but perhaps not as defined as CSI male boxers. The argument had to do with the skeletal form being bigger: bigger shoulder joints and the hand boness are bigger than a CIS female. CIS women are not that wide at the shoulder and Ms Fox punching power would far out do a CISwoman. Roigan argues that her bone density is greater than a CISwoman and would not be altered by being post op transwoman. Her hand bones, wrists and elbow joints would be thicker than a CISwoman and this part of the body is needed in boxing.

I agree that I think that there are weight classes. My guess (but based on men boxers) is that she is a lightweight but may be a higher category for women? She weighs 145 pounds but her bone structure and muscle bulk make her appear larger depending on her height?

She had won two fights against CSI women by brutal knockouts in the first round. She is boxing in a smaller less known female boxing system and he questions the sincerity of that organization for permitting her to fight while more known organizations are not using transwomen to fight CISwomen. Roigan claims that Ms Fox should not be permitted due to the violence (injuries) the CISwomen endured.

He questions the size of her arms and I wonder about the deltoids & trapesius(shoulder area) as they seem rather large for a person not on testosterone? It might be argued that Mohamad Ali's daughter has a similar shoulder build(not sure about her joints and hands though)

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Above you can see Fox on the left and the difference in her biceps from what appears to be a CSIwoman friend on the right.

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Above you can see her shoulder definition and although not as defined as a CSImale can be there is some mass that is muscle in her deltoids and bicepts.

[transcendMental]

Bad choice of words, but I really don't have a dog in this fight tenni. I've alwasy hated boxing. People who do it, do it knowing they're going to be injured brutally. Anyone who is willing to sustain major brain injury really shouldn't get picky about who gives it to them. But I have a hard time defending the right of any person to get themselves beat up, especially in an age where healthcare is so rare and expensive. We've outlawed dogfights and cockfights. Are we not humane enough to outlaw humanfights?

I haven't heard anything real about bone density, aside from the mere fact that hormones diminish it as well. Maybe it takes longer? I'll trust science on that one, and if they want to exclude her because of measured bone density (rather than alleged bone density), then do that, but apply the rule to all boxers, not just trans boxers. Or figure out how long it takes to equalize and impose a longer waiting period.

But I guess I have to ask whether there'd be any outcry if it was a cis-woman who was this big and dense (with that size shoulders and hands - don't tell me there are no such women) dealing out brutal injury to her opponents. I suspect there'd be just as much outcry if this transwoman had woman-sized hands (like I happen to have), woman-comparable shoulders (not that hers look wrong to me for a woman who boxes), and standard female bone density (assuming hers isn't), if her performance was the same. Isn't the problem really that people see her as a man beating up on girls?

tm

[tenni]

Hi TM
I’ve been thinking about what you posted about transwomen who wish to box CSIwomen and their bone density issue. I do not know for certain as to the role of this difference in bone density between natal males and natal females. I suspect that Rogan considers it a factor in strength in the delivery of the punch.


Your idea about creating a class of boxers based upon their bone density is interesting but seems to be a bit unclear ?

1/ Gender becomes factor one. (men fight men/women fight women) Ms Fox presents herself as female. All fighters must be the same gender female.

2/ Factor two seems to be weight classification. (heavyweights fight heavyweights, lightweights fight lightweights etc.) Ms Fox must fight females who are lightweights.

3/ If we introduce a third factor of bone density, would there be anyone to fight Ms Fox?


If bone density is a natal sex factor (not gender), no CSI female would have the bone category of Ms Fox. If bone density does not change based on reduction of testosterone , then Ms Fox would find herself fighting other transwomen in the lightweight category. There probably would be no CSI females with the same bone density. I don’t know for sure though.


Bone density causes fracture problems more for aging CSI females than CSI males. Are you aware of any study indicating that transwomen bone density parallels CSI female deterioration with age or follow CSI male patterns of bone fractures with aging?

[ScandalouS]

Woot first post.

What about 47 XXY males etc? The whole system is ridiculous to begin with.

Re: bone density.
Post-op m2f transsexual women often have to take a maintenance dose of estrogen to avoid osteoporosis, just like post-menopausal cisgender women.
Pre-op and non-op transsexual women on HRT can have similar issues if/when their endocrinology is out of whack, especially when combining oestrogen with androgen blockers. This shouldn't happen as osteoporosis takes longer than puberty, however, some people have a really hard time on HRT. DVTs, strokes, organ failure etc can put you back years.

There are plenty of women out there who are built like Arnold Schwarzenegger, regardless of whether they're trans or cis. The woman in question looks like a boxer; surprise, she's a boxer.

[transcendMental]

Hi TM
I’ve been thinking about what you posted about transwomen who wish to box CSIwomen and their bone density issue. I do not know for certain as to the role of this difference in bone density between natal males and natal females. I suspect that Rogan considers it a factor in strength in the delivery of the punch.

Your idea about creating a class of boxers based upon their bone density is interesting but seems to be a bit unclear ?
1/ Gender becomes factor one. (men fight men/women fight women) Ms Fox presents herself as female. All fighters must be the same gender female.
2/ Factor two seems to be weight classification. (heavyweights fight heavyweights, lightweights fight lightweights etc.) Ms Fox must fight females who are lightweights.

3/ If we introduce a third factor of bone density, would there be anyone to fight Ms Fox?

If bone density is a natal sex factor (not gender), no CSI female would have the bone category of Ms Fox. If bone density does not change based on reduction of testosterone , then Ms Fox would find herself fighting other transwomen in the lightweight category. There probably would be no CSI females with the same bone density. I don’t know for sure though.

Bone density causes fracture problems more for aging CSI females than CSI males. Are you aware of any study indicating that transwomen bone density parallels CSI female deterioration with age or follow CSI male patterns of bone fractures with aging?

No, I don't know of any research about bone density in transwomen. I do know that generally speaking, MtF transsexuals gain the benefits of estrogen and lose the benefits of testosterone after years of hormonal transition; similarly for FtM transsexuals. So I would guess that MtFs would have the same deterioration with age as cis-women (btw it is cis, not csi).

Another language thing. Bone density is a physical trait, not a sex trait or a gender trait. Height is similarly a physical trait, not a sex trait. Any physical trait can be biased within men or women, but there is a LOT of variation. Men are taller than women on average, but many women are taller than many men and some women are taller than most men. Pretty sure this would be true of bone density too. So yes, if fighters were classed by bone-density, I imagine Ms. Fox could well still have women to fight.

But lets get to the real point here. IF transwomen, even after many years of hormonal treatment, still have a significantly higher bone density than cis-women (enough that it makes a difference in the power of their punches and they should be classed separately, enough that you really can't find any female boxers who are comparable to a transwoman's bone density), I'm perfectly willing to say yeah, there's a problem with transwomen boxing ciswomen.

What I want to know is IF it would be determined that Fox's bone density is the same as her opponents', or if we create bone-density classes and there are women in Fox's class, would YOU be perfectly willing to say yeah, there's no problem with transwomen boxing ciswomen? Would Rogan? Or as I said before, is the real issue that people see this as a man beating up on girls?

tm