Boston Marathon Bomber in Custody

[onewhocares]

Just wanted to add to the other thread which concerned folks started as a response to the tragic bombing which occurred at the finish line of the 117th Boston Marathon on Monday. At about 8:45 pm on Friday, April 17, 2013 the second bomber was captured alive, but who was also injured in a gun fight which killed his older brother in the early morning hours, gave up to a hostage negotiator. He was hiding in a boat in a neighboring town of Watertown, after a tragic early evening yesterday in Cambridge where one MIT (Massachusetts Institute of Technology) police officer was killed in cold blood and another transit officer was critically injured. The City of Boston and neighboring communities were in "lock down" mode for much of the day today. The “shelter in place ban” was lifted at seven this evening, and shortly thereafter a viligent and observant neighbor saw a hole in boat which was shrink wrapped for the winter and blood at the opening an reported it to the police.

The two men, of Chechnyan decent, who have lived in the Boston area for ten years were identified as suspects from photos issued by the FBI yesterday afternoon. No motive has been given. In toll, three dead including an eight year old boy ,two young women, last night a police officer and dozens and dozens who lost limbs, eyes, ears.

Families and victims will never be the same; BOSTON will never be the same. As many of you know, I most often sign posts as Belle of Boston, tonight I have never been more proud of the resolve, strength and solidarity of the citizens of Boston for an end to a tragedy.

THANK YOU ALL who have sent notes of concern to myself and my family. Justice will be done. This is an act of terror and I pray that the world will not have to experience this as Boston has. Belle of the Proud Strong BOSTON

[Long Duck Dong]

hugs.... just lots of hugs for so many..... I am not sure what else to say

[Dead Account]

It's great how all the agencies and first responders handled everything and kept everyone safe. Bang up job! However, some folks wounds will never be healed, and catching him somehow seems so... Temporary. God bless all involved....

[DuckiesDarling]

Hugs, Belle. Been watching this unfold since the first bar crossed the bottom of the screen that explosions had rocked the Boston Marathon. Hopefully there will be answers from the younger brother, most important the WHY of it. They may have hoped to spark an issue between America and Russia but so far what they sparked was a renewal of hope in the fact that Bostonians ran TOWARD the injured to help, not away.

[elian]

I was posting on another board in response to a comment someone had made about people 'turning" gay and it occurs to me that the issues of acceptance, tolerance and love that we are all struggling with here play a role in the wider world.

If people all knew that they were loved and worthy JUST FOR BEING WHO THEY ARE, maybe there would be less angry people trying to blow stuff up?

I am very glad that the situation was resolved without anyone else having to get hurt. I do not condone the actions of either suspect. I do have more respect for someone who turns themselves in than a coward who takes their own life and causes even more pain. This "kid" was only 19 years old - what a mess.

Boston is a wonderful city, the people there are strong and proud of their heritage, there are a lot of people calling for "this and that" all across the country .. all I wish is that people get a chance to heal in an honest and loving way. I am sorry for your loss.

[mariersa]

Gladly a painful ordeal has ended, physically. Mentally, it will never for all those directly affected, very sad indeed!!! Thoughts and Prayers!

as a side note: I hope your government treats this as terrorism and not some idiotic other. Sorry Belle!!

[void()]

Just wanted to add to the other thread which concerned folks started as a response to the tragic bombing which occurred at the finish line of the 117th Boston Marathon on Monday. At about 8:45 pm on Friday, April 17, 2013 the second bomber was captured alive, but who was also injured in a gun fight which killed his older brother in the early morning hours, gave up to a hostage negotiator. He was hiding in a boat in a neighboring town of Watertown, after a tragic early evening yesterday in Cambridge where one MIT (Massachusetts Institute of Technology) police officer was killed in cold blood and another transit officer was critically injured. The City of Boston and neighboring communities were in "lock down" mode for much of the day today. The “shelter in place ban” was lifted at seven this evening, and shortly thereafter a viligent and observant neighbor saw a hole in boat which was shrink wrapped for the winter and blood at the opening an reported it to the police.

The two men, of Chechnyan decent, who have lived in the Boston area for ten years were identified as suspects from photos issued by the FBI yesterday afternoon. No motive has been given. In toll, three dead including an eight year old boy ,two young women, last night a police officer and dozens and dozens who lost limbs, eyes, ears.

Families and victims will never be the same; BOSTON will never be the same. As many of you know, I most often sign posts as Belle of Boston, tonight I have never been more proud of the resolve, strength and solidarity of the citizens of Boston for an end to a tragedy.

THANK YOU ALL who have sent notes of concern to myself and my family. Justice will be done. This is an act of terror and I pray that the world will not have to experience this as Boston has.Belle of the Proud Strong BOSTON

Belle, let me apologize first. I am not meaning exactly to cause a stir. I like many others right now are grasping for comprehension of the event/s.

That said I feel a bit at odds in your view the police officer was killed in "cold blood". I have good reason to be at odds, too.

1. I'm not sure about you but if a small armed army were brought into a locality to pursue me. Then as self preservation, yes if in defending myself I had to shoot at police or members of that army, I would.

2. Police by the same merit, also volunteer to do the job they do. They are well advised of the risks. They know someone could shoot at them, yet they still do the job. and yes, I know some police are paid. Ultimately though, they decide to do the job knowing the risk/s.

3. I consider the youthfulness of the alleged suspect. At nineteen, I know there was a lot which frightened me and was incomprehensible. Now, I magnify this by the fact he was being pursued by people whom seemed more inclined to shoot first and question later.

I also disagree that there was a shelter in place "ban" in place. From various other reliable sources in or around the area, I've heard or read that folks volunteered staying inside. Many business and schools were either voluntarily closed or on holiday in consideration of public safety. No authorities were proclaiming "stay inside or else be fined/arrested" the authorities suggested folks stay inside yes, but many had already decided to do so voluntarily. So, it was not as many popular mainstream media seems to be sensationalizing "martial law".

I feel there are a lot of holes in the congruency of the "official" story presented. However, there are still many vague issues which give rise to unanswered questions. I would like to see Maryland treat the case as a criminal case and disallow the Federal government from declaring it an act of terror. Granted, it does lend to being horrific. But so far, as far as I'm aware, no one is owning up as the vile "terrorist" group behind what happened. From video of the bombings it seems they were "attention getters". It may have been to direct attention to the 3,000 gas leaks in Boston in the past few years.

Understand, I am not condoning or justifying the actions of the bombers. I am saying everyone should step back a bit, let everything get sorted out, questions answered before tossing out babes in bathwater. So far it does not seem to make sense. I know such things rarely do. There is though often rationale behind such events which does lend to making sense. That is not coming forward yet.

Again, I apologize if it seems this is confrontational. It isn't really intended to be so beyond "can we please to wait on hanging the suspect, until we've got all the information?" I just don't feel we ought to dismiss our humanity and compassion so easily as to illicit mob mentality the likes of the Burning Times.

[Mr. Suck]

Void you just don't get it and everything is going over your head. These people are terrorists and are adults, and it was their own personal choice to set off explosives in public that killed and injured people. They should be tried as terrorists and what they did by setting off explosives had nothing to do with the 3,000 gas leaks in Boston or whatever nonsense you posted about. There are far more effective and non-violent ways to get attention towards such things. I saw in the news how the one son was converted to radical Islam and put up youtube videos about this. Also now the parents of these adults and their other relatives are in denial and are claiming that their adult sons were set up which is total bullshit. The police and law enforcement acted the way they had to considering these men were armed and had set off IEDs/explosives.

[darkeyes]

There is a principle of law in both our countries that a person is considered innocent until proven guilty by legal process. Of course many, even most pay lip service to that, and many think it bullshit.. the minds of so many are already made up as they always are at such times.. to talk of these 2 men as bombers when as yet no evidence has been played before a court is somewhat premature, and as yet the circumstances of the death of a policeman are not known for sure.. I suggest people keep perspective, do not make assumptions and allow the law to do it's job uncluttered by the baying wolves of the lynch mob demanding summary justice.

[elian]

The one point I will agree with Void on is that the government doesn't do anyone any good by singling these two out for "special justice" - that only feeds the perception of other radicals that the US Government is an unfair monolith. the remaining suspect should go through our standard legal process to the fullest extent possible. I know it doesn't "seem fair" that the case isn't expedited but it needs to at least have the perception of fairness, Otherwise there are tons more group who are going to have the perception that they are "at war" with the government.

It is true that it looked as though an Army was basically patrolling the block, however, one of the things I am most proud of is that the police and agents acted with professionalism, did their job to the best of their ability and DID NOT shoot the suspect.

The news organizations in this country are sick. Some things should not be about capitalism but isn't that the motivation? To report things from unconfirmed sources in an effort to be the "first" one to break the story, to be "the best", to keep people tuned in by showing the same horrific images over and over? Let's see some more advertising revenue - yay!

There was that one time the dude was showing the stuff live without a 5 second buffer to edit out the grizzly parts and the entire country got to watch someone kill themselves on live TV; but that IS what we are talking about here is people's lives.

Did anyone ever tell these guys that they DON'T have to play the news and commentary shows 24 hours a day? We are all sleeping for at least 12 of those hours..

[void()]

Void you just don't get it and everything is going over your head. These people are terrorists and are adults, and it was their own personal choice to set off explosives in public that killed and injured people. They should be tried as terrorists and what they did by setting off explosives had nothing to do with the 3,000 gas leaks in Boston or whatever nonsense you posted about. There are far more effective and non-violent ways to get attention towards such things. I saw in the news how the one son was converted to radical Islam and put up youtube videos about this. Also now the parents of these adults and their other relatives are in denial and are claiming that their adult sons were set up which is total bullshit. The police and law enforcement acted the way they had to considering these men were armed and had set off IEDs/explosives.

The "nonsense" I'm posting about is found here.

1. https://www.bu.edu/today/2012/boston-street-level-gas-leaks-3300-plus/
2. https://www.bu.edu/cas/2012/11/20/thousands-of-natural-gas-leaks-discovered-in-boston/

If you would have read my post more fully you would have seen I said, I'm not condoning nor justifying their actions, if indeed they did the bombings. I am not in disagreement with less non-violent means being used to direct attention toward problems. In fact I'm rather all for that.

As a matter of fact, here is what I did say, emphasis added so it is beyond clear.


Understand, I am not condoning or justifying the actions of the bombers. I am saying everyone should step back a bit, let everything get sorted out, questions answered before tossing out babes in bathwater. So far it does not seem to make sense. I know such things rarely do. There is though often rationale behind such events which does lend to making sense. That is not coming forward yet.

Again, I apologize if it seems this is confrontational. It isn't really intended to be so beyond "can we please to wait on hanging the suspect, until we've got all the information?" I just don't feel we ought to dismiss our humanity and compassion so easily as to illicit mob mentality the likes of the Burning Times.

The babes of which I was speaking in that were not the bombers. The babes are metaphorically, humanity and compassion which I suggested we not lose. Apologies if that was misunderstood.

Merely because you saw in the news how someone allegedly converted to Islam, does not:

1. mean they did.
2. mean that all Islamics are fanatical.
3. mean that the motivations or reasons behind the incidents of the last week involved any religious idea/s.
4. mean that one version or other of the same deity is better or worse than another.
5. mean that Muslims, Islamics all teach hate, xenophobia and to destroy others.
6. mean Christianity should destroy other religions.

What I am seeing of the media present a clear image that if you're not Caucasian, Anglo-Saxon and Christian you'll be lynched up, bombed by nuclear ordnance, taken and held prisoner without due process, or whatever manner of abuse that hate deems flavor of the week. I am sorry. I did not enlist voluntarily in the United states Navy to protect such an image of America. I am Atheist at best, humanist at worst, meaning I choose no religion. I respect all others. Granted, I did not serve long, I did however serve. I was willing do what was needed.

I did so to protect family, and an America where everyone is considered innocent of a crime until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. What I see in this case, and frankly in the case of Bin Laden is not that presumption of justice but rather mere vengeance for transgressions, real or imagined. The media often speculates. Speculation is often based off of opinion, which is subjective. Subjectivity by definition is emotional and not object nor fair, just.

But yes, you're 100% correct. It's all going over my head. Sometimes one must consider the ones whom are viewed as insane just may be a bit more sane than the sane. My posting was not meant as a debate. It was meant as as a plea. I feel we need to slow it all down, let justice work. Ignore the media because it has been proven and literally been noted by those in the C.I.A that media's programming is indeed a perfect weapon of psychological warfare. If it has also been proven our government thinks of us as immature children, ask yourself would not a parental government lie to its children even if to "protect" them?

Yes, quite over my head, indeed. I refuse to join in a mob hellbent upon losing humanity, hope.

[odissius2b]

There is a principle of law in both our countries that a person is considered innocent until proven guilty by legal process. Of course many, even most pay lip service to that, and many think it bullshit.. the minds of so many are already made up as they always are at such times.. to talk of these 2 men as bombers when as yet no evidence has been played before a court is somewhat premature, and as yet the circumstances of the death of a policeman are not known for sure.. I suggest people keep perspective, do not make assumptions and allow the law to do it's job uncluttered by the baying wolves of the lynch mob demanding summary justice.

I recall reading a few years ago that a physicist falling from a plane does not consider it "just another example of the laws of gravity." So, I'm wondering...if it had been YOUR arms or legs blown off by the bombs of these "2 men" (as you call them)...would you still be so philosophical? And before you answer, I want you to imagine yourself without any arms or legs for the rest of your life.

[darkeyes]

I recall reading a few years ago that a physicist falling from a plane does not consider it "just another example of the laws of gravity." So, I'm wondering...if it had been YOUR arms or legs blown off by the bombs of these "2 men" (as you call them)...would you still be so philosophical? And before you answer, I want you to imagine yourself without any arms or legs for the rest of your life.
My dad lost a friend in a bombing in England when I was little.. he raised me with a sense of justice,, he may have been angry but he never prejudged the guilt or innocence of those apprehended.. he raised me with a sense of justice and to expect that the judicial system provides it. That it all too often fails is often because of those who prejudge and the hysteria of media inspired public opinion which demands in British police jargon.. "a result".. The judicial systems of both our countries are imperfect and this is recognised by the legal insistence on the principle of which I wrote and justice at least in theory is why we have judicial systems at all and why these justice systems have both an appeals procedure and the capacity to grant free pardons if and when a convicted person is found to be innocent. .. I have been the victim of serious crime and the perpetrator still walks the earth scot free and has never been apprehended or punished.. and so have no wish that anyone but he pays the price, but I have no burning desire for vengeance.. only justice...and the great thing about our legal systems is supposed to be that all, both innocent and guilty, are supposed to receive justice.

[elian]

Is there an eyewitness who can honestly say they placed the backpacks that subsequently exploded? If so then they are guilty. Period. There is no point in speculation or trying to rationalize the behavior. There is no point in trying to use this to justify more suffering, hatred and violence. Each person is individually responsible for their own life and their own actions.

The US law system intentionally divorces the victim from the defendant and acts as a surrogate in the defense of communal law. A victim may feel that an eye for an eye is justified, but the defendant is not being tried by the victim and for good reason. They can't have everyone taking the law into their own hands, the wider community decides if the person is innocent or guilty and the community agrees on punishment.

It may not seem fair to the victim but the state simply demands that people live up to communal law. If you didn't want to live by the laws of this country you can leave..it's easy.

[mariersa]

The elements of guilt have already beenn met, save the time and expense of a long tedious painfull trial with all the related psycholigical/media/evaluative bullshit. Remember the guy whose truck they carjacked, they admitted they did it to him and let him "escape".
When the FBI released the videotape and still pics from said tape, now they had to "run" or/and render more damage, RIP officer Collier. Treat him as a captured enemy soldier, get the intelligence then try him, he's guilty and execute the coward!!

[elian]

It isn't that I am not a human being with natural feelings I feel a lot of frustration, anger, disappointment, sadness. I have already said enough, to say any more would not be helpful. I think I will go for a walk. When faced with tragedy It is so easy to forget that we are loved.

[tenni]

Many questions are being asked. Beyond the following video, questions about terrorist killing five compared to CEO of the fertilizer company that killed 15 people and injured more people (150) than what happened in Boston. I am uncertain but such talk may be an apples/oranges issue. Still interesting that so much was focused on one "terrorist" event while the government activities get fewer comments and concerns. Perhaps more concern and comments will come forwards as time elapses.

http://www.nationofchange.org/real-terrorists-are-corporate-execs-who-ve-bought-regulators-1366467845

"
How can this be so? Because the entire health and safety regulatory apparatus of the US, from the federal level to the states and right down to local government, has been effectively neutered by corporate interests, who have used everything from threats of relocating to campaign contributions and outright bribes of officials and elected representatives to buy or win the right to basically operate as unsafely as they like, free of supervision.

As a result, regulation of dangerous plants and factories in the US these days is essentially nonexistent.That, to me, is a kind of terrorism, and it is far more dangerous to the health and safety of the American people than any foreign or domestic terrorist or terrorist organization."

WATERTOWN, MA -- On Friday, April 19, 2013, during a manhunt for a bombing suspect, police and federal agents spent the day storming people's homes and performing illegal searches. While it was unclear initially if the home searches were voluntary, it is now crystal clear that they were absolutely NOT voluntary. Police were filmed ripping people from their homes at gunpoint, marching the residents out with their hands raised in submission, and then storming the homes to perform their illegal searches.

This was part of a larger operation that involved total lockdown of the suburban neighbor to Boston. Roads were barricaded and vehicle traffic was prohibited. A No-Fly Zone was declared over the town. People were "ordered" to stay indoors. Businesses were told not to open. National Guard soldiers helped with the lockdown, and were photographed checking IDs of pedestrians on the streets. All the while, police were performing these disgusting house-to-house searches.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LrbsUVSVl8

[elian]

Is this supposed to make me feel better tenni?

“At NationofChange, our mission is to help people create a more compassionate, responsible, and value-driven world, powered by communities that focus on positive solutions to social and economic problems. We strive to accomplish this mission through unbiased, independent journalism combined with practical, real-world activism in order to create actionable strategies for change.”

In October 2011, NationofChange demonstrated at Occupy Wall Street in Zuccotti Park and donated supplies to the protestors. NationofChange also attended and donated to October2011 protesters and their camps in Washington DC.

In November 2011, NationofChange volunteers rallied in San Diego, Ca. during Bank Transfer Day. NationofChange also hosted a fundraiser for necessary warmth supplies for Occupy groups in Washington DC, New York City, Chicago and Boston.

In December 2011, NationofChange demonstrated with nurses on strike at the Long Beach Memorial Medical Center.

In January 2012, NationofChange marched with Occupy protesters in the Rose Parade. NationOfChange helps rally to raise awareness on the California Universal Health Care Act, SB 810. On January 20, 2012, NationofChange joined thousands in the financial district of downtown San Francisco in a daylong nonviolent mass occupation.

In February 2012, NationofChange collaborated with Occupy Kansas and Columbia Climate Change Coalition in "Occupy Koch Brothers" action at the Koch Brothers corporate facilities.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NationofChange#cite_note-4)In March 2012, NationofChange Occupied Monsanto facilities in Oxnard, Ca. and donated funds toward the education and awareness of human rights and environmental ramification of Monsanto.

NationofChange launched an ecological educational campaign: "Ditch the Plastic Bag", in an ongoing effort to raise awareness for the environmental ramifications caused by plastic bags and litter.

In June 2012, NationofChange launched a public billboard campaign criticizing biotech giant Monsanto.

In August 2012, NationofChange produced a national television campaign criticizing Monsanto.

In November 2012, NationofChange in collaboration with the Rolling Jubilee Fund raised over $500,000 worth of distressed debt of American families and abolished it.

--

Is there any other advertising that you want to do for this organization using the blood of innocent people?

[angiebi6]

To my Friends in America
First....to all of those who were hurt or had a loved one hurt by the bombs.God speed.. Know that all sane people are here for you and understand your pain, but like you do not understand why this insane act happened.
To the brave American people who put themselves in harms way to bring this insideous tragic.occurance to a close God Bless You!
To the perpetraters of the bombings....May you both rot in hell!!
I thank God that my nieghbor is the USA
I am a Canadian

[tenni]

Elain
Make you feel better?

Those pesky organizations making you aware of injustice rarely do. Whether they are right or wrong, I would think that the truth rarely makes some of us feel better.

I'm reminded of another statement that won't make you feel better. I'll share it anyway as I have been thinking about it as I was watching these tragedies.

The US media seems to be addicted to crisis. It goes from one crisis to the next and each seems to need to escalate in emotional intensity to get the same effect. Why is that Elain? There is never a good time to discuss the causes...it might offend the delicate ones reeling in pain.

[elian]

"Pain" is all around me, every day - this world is crying out for compassion. People say, "But I am not God, I am helpless. I am a prisoner." That is crap, it is within our hands to choose to respond with either pain or compassion. The greatest bondage we fight is the bondage we place on ourselves.

You want to talk about causes? Lack of compassion in this world .. that's a big one.

[void()]

Elain
Make you feel better?

Those pesky organizations making you aware of injustice rarely do. Whether they are right or wrong, I would think that the truth rarely makes some of us feel better.

I'm reminded of another statement that won't make you feel better. I'll share it anyway as I have been thinking about it as I was watching these tragedies.

The US media seems to be addicted to crisis. It goes from one crisis to the next and each seems to need to escalate in emotional intensity to get the same effect. Why is that Elain? There is never a good time to discuss the causes...it might offend the delicate ones reeling in pain.

I believe this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_is_a_Racket) may have something to do with our media's slant. If one considers the Federal Reserve as a privately held central bank, and then you apply the axiom of following the money, it starts to work itself out. I'm reminded of George Carlin's comment, "we like war." Also agree with Elain on this, we need a booster shot of compassion, all of humanity does.

[elian]

No other creature on Earth believes that it is "destined for greatness" the way humankind does and it has caused great suffering. At this point I would settle for "goodness" - I believe that "goodness" is much better than "greatness" anyway.

I am sorry for dragging out this thread. I hope all of you are safe and my prayers go out to the families of those who were affected.

[darkeyes]

Elain
Make you feel better?

Those pesky organizations making you aware of injustice rarely do. Whether they are right or wrong, I would think that the truth rarely makes some of us feel better.

I'm reminded of another statement that won't make you feel better. I'll share it anyway as I have been thinking about it as I was watching these tragedies.

The US media seems to be addicted to crisis. It goes from one crisis to the next and each seems to need to escalate in emotional intensity to get the same effect. Why is that Elain? There is never a good time to discuss the causes...it might offend the delicate ones reeling in pain.
How do u feel better about death caused by deliberate killing in the name of cause as opposed to accidental killing in the name of negligence and capital? U may feel less bad about the numbers killed in one over the other other but u can never feel better. In both instances the killing is insane and need not have been. Human decision and action or inaction brought them about. Neither is or can be better than the other but conversely one can be worse than the other..

..and Elian, it is our pain which brings out in us our compassion.. without one we cannot have the other:).

[tenni]

"accidental killing in the name of negligence and capital?"

The questions being raised about the West company is whether we should accept the accidental aspects as if it is negligence or not. In the case of the bombers there is no denying that the intent was to maim and kill. Where is the line to determine that the West explosion was negligence and not wilfull intent is being asked? The accusation is that it is not negligence but wilfull intent to strip the regulations of any significance. Where one set of murders is easy to accuse perhaps due to conditioning of accusing Muslims of wrong doing while to see CEO's as somehow having the interests of society guiding them and the government in the best manner.

Yes, compassion for those who have been horribly maimed and lives severely damaged regardless if the perpetrators were young men or CEO's. Are people not tired of emoting over these crises and seeing no real changes in the direction of improvement? Standing in a crowd singing your national anthem does little beyond supporting "we are victims but will "win" emoting. The questions that the video of home invasions by the military also raises questions about lines being crossed. These are questions that should be examined and not just go with the flow of emotion and compassion for those maimed and overlook rights of a democratic society. With each ignoring of rights are we slipping further and further away from democracy? The rapid disclosure of information on the marathon bombing fills our need to know while our need to know is of less intensity in the West murders. There is more emotional kick to the marathon bombers than the West explosion.

I'm not writing that I do not feel the horror and compassion for the marathon victims but curious as to why we go along that path so easily but resist seeing the West bomb (even using the word bomb seems inappropriate) as a bomb.

[darkeyes]

I accept nothing about the explosion.. we don't know enough as yet to judge much about it. That it could have been avoided I have not the slightest doubt and the degree to which it was wilful or negligent remains to be seen. I feel equal horror and compassion for the victims of both tragedies as I do for any tragedy.. the reason for each tragedy may be different but people died and I will not be sidetracked at this stage because there is simply far too much we do not know and many questions remaining unanswered..

...in some ways I understand ur point because it suits very often our societies, governments, media and companies to concentrate on a lesser tragedy born of what they consider terrorism to cover up for a greater tragedy born of media, business and government passion for the retention and furtherance of capitalism and rather than prioritise news coverage to investigate and comment upon business negligence whether it be wilful or accidental... it is easier to stir the emotions with the likes of Boston because our societies are conditioned to being revolted by people who plant bombs to a greater degree than they ever condemn a system which causes at least as much suffering and tragedy in an (arguably) even more uncaring way. Far more people will die or be harmed in the US alone from business and industrial "negligence" in pursuit of profit than will die as a result of what we call terror in pursuit of cause in the US, Canada and Europe combined, but it does not stir the emotions to anything like the same degree because we are not conditioned for it to be quite so much to the fore in either our consciousness or our conscience..

No death for whatever reason is any the less a tragedy than any other.. certainly not for those who die and those who are closest to them... but scale of tragedy is quite another matter... we often prioritise and concentrate on quite the wrong tragedy in both for reasons more to with societal, government, media and business purpose... it suits and most people fall for it and allow it to happen... and that in itself is a real tragedy...

[jamieknyc]

The elements of guilt have already beenn met, save the time and expense of a long tedious painfull trial with all the related psycholigical/media/evaluative bullshit. Remember the guy whose truck they carjacked, they admitted they did it to him and let him "escape".
When the FBI released the videotape and still pics from said tape, now they had to "run" or/and render more damage, RIP officer Collier. Treat him as a captured enemy soldier, get the intelligence then try him, he's guilty and execute the coward!!This isn't South Africa. Here we have trials and sentencings in which the defendant is entitled to legal representation, and in which he has the right to make his defense.

What he can be charged with: two federal charges of using a bomb, one state court charge of murdering a police officer, three regular murders, and various charges of assault for the victims who were wounded. Contrary to what some idiot politicians have said, he cannot be held as an enemy combatant.

[mariersa]

Exactly right Jamie, his defence is My brother and I planned and executed this premeditated murder of innocents and maheming of many more. We decided to use a military style explosive for maximum affect, once trapped we murdered a policeman and attempted same on others. Although gravely wounded(survivor) pleads innocent on the grounds that we didn't kill more of you!! Everyone is entitled to representation however I wonder can you really find an impartial jury???? oops leave it up to an impartial judge?? hmmm it's a conundrum. Ok go throught he steps, make it short and brief, there seems to be plenty of evidence pointing to guilt, not some screwball phsycho stupidity "my brother made me do it". Execution the faster the better maybe the victims may realise some relief for a fast and complete end to this chapter.
Seems that most "civilised" societies do allow defendents representation, you don't hold a monoply on that element, seems the path to a final resolution maybe somewhat different, you want to drag your feet? (increase fees for lawyers, psychiatrists, pshycologists, expert witness' etc etc) when others prefer a quick and fast end to the matter.
I recall reading somewhere that US citizens we're actually tried, sentenced and executed when taking up arms against their country as it should be, regardless of nationality.
By the way a last thought, I suppose the most extreme insult to the US is the fact that the murderer was Nationalized as a Citizen on 09-11-2012, the final insult?

[capecod]

scared us all.......

[jamieknyc]

The last treason trials in the United States were held immediately after World War II for six Americans who went over to the Nazis or the Japanese, the most famous of whom was Tokyo Rose. The only person who was ever executed for treason in the United States was John Brown.

No trial, whether in a civilian or military court, is going to be fast. This defendant can't be tried in a military court anyway.

[darkeyes]

We have no idea what his defence would be but he has the right to place it before a jury of his peers. While findng an entirely impartial jury is difficult finding one which will fairly listen to the evidence and decide accordingly is not... neither is finding a fair judge... fine.. execute him.. easy peasy... and lower humanity further down 2 the level which u and others adjudge him and his brother. Judicial vengeance remains vengeance but it can and must be taken not gratuitously but with a modicum of justice which will convince the world that it is not just a fit up...or create yet another martyr to the cause which most will claim to loathe and ensure the cycle of hatred and vengeance continues... allow him representation yet convict anyway? Is that what we really want?

We should be careful of that for this country at least has convicted terrorists only to find out later they were nothing of the sort... we should be careful of open and shut cases.. often they get up and bite us on the arse and show us up to be anything but fair minded and police and authorities anything but just. This country is full of those and not a few involved cases of terrorism... and your country has more than its fair share historically... not all of whom were represented or tried, but found face down in a ditch...or in a shallow grave or chucked out a window very casually "trying to escape"... do u wish to return to those bygone days? If not then why wish it upon another country no matter how angry u feel and how convinced u are of another's guilt?

Even the guilty deserve justice and a fair hearing.. of course we could do it like China where a murder trial lasts a single day if we are lucky.. or return to the ancient days of justice in Britain where a defendant was not allowed to utter so much as a word in his or her defence... or just gaol people because we dont like them or what they say or do... the US already has a few cases of that in Guantanamo bay... and Britain has had its share of those where men and women were imprisoned and even tortured and sterilised, and some murdered with no charge and no trial... neither country is alone in that but they pride themselves in being fair and just societies... Britain once imprisoned Thousands of women and children in concentration camps in South Africa.. no trial.. just suspicion of Boer sympathy..thousands died....

What others want is of no consequence. If we are to retain a reputation as a compassionate and fair society we must have a proper system of justice where all are listened to and all are judged by their peers based on evidence.. God knows both the US and the UK pride themselves in their systems of justice and yet both creak with injustice.. do we really wish to compound the criticism of US justice with yet another case of a man not being given his day in court?

Justice for all is an expensive thing and so it should be.. every human being charged with a crime should be given their day in court to defend themselves no matter how compelling the evidence which is available prior to trial...that is not all of the evidence upon which they will be judged and it is often wrong.... for we don't get it all in the media.. or see it all on telly... justice is not cheap and neither should it be quick... it is time consuming and must be if the truth is to be found and guilt or innocence ascertained... no matter how heinous the crime.. every human being has the right to be listened to and tried fairly..and judged accordingly.. none deserves a kangaroo court or a lynch mob.. our societies have had enough of both in the past but surely we have moved on. We become as bad as any terrorist or killer, any criminal of any kind if we deny people their right to a fair trial where all the evidence can be placed before a court of law... we become both terrorist and criminal ourselves if we deny justice to any and equal justice to all...even those, no.. especially those that we believe so obviously done the dirty deed...

[Young pussy and dope]

I just saw this on the news: Terror charges have been formally filed against Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, the 19-year-old suspected of helping carry out the bomb attacks at last week's Boston Marathon, killing three and wounding more than 200 others. According to the U.S. Department of Justice, Tsarnaev has been charged with "using a weapon of mass destruction against persons and property at the Boston Marathon on April 15, 2013, resulting in the death of three people and injuries to more than 200 people."

[jamieknyc]

There has been a lot of talking out of asses in the last few days. Some facts:

Tsarnaev cannot be held as an enemy combatant because an enemy combatant must be both (i) someone fighting for al-Qaeda or the Taliban, and (ii) an alien. The may not even be able to charge him with terrorism- terrorism requires that the act be done with the intention to influence the acts of the government. He can be charged with placing a bomb. From the point of view of sentencing, there is not a great deal of difference between the two.

Even if he could be held as an enemy combatant, that does not make a great deal of practical difference. The only real difference between that and a civilian trial would be that the case would be heard by a panel of judges rather than by a jury. I would be surprised if Tsarnaev's attorneys ask for a jury trial anyway.

So everyone can go take a cold shower and let the FBI and U.S. Attorney handle it.

[darkeyes]

There has been a lot of talking out of asses in the last few days. Some facts:

Tsarnaev cannot be held as an enemy combatant because an enemy combatant must be both (i) someone fighting for al-Qaeda or the Taliban, and (ii) an alien. The may not even be able to charge him with terrorism- terrorism requires that the act be done with the intention to influence the acts of the government. He can be charged with placing a bomb. From the point of view of sentencing, there is not a great deal of difference between the two.

Even if he could be held as an enemy combatant, that does not make a great deal of practical difference. The only real difference between that and a civilian trial would be that the case would be heard by a panel of judges rather than by a jury. I would be surprised if Tsarnaev's attorneys ask for a jury trial anyway.

So everyone can go take a cold shower and let the FBI and U.S. Attorney handle it.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/22/boston-marathon-terrorism-aurora-sandy-hook Read this earlier today and found it interesting when considering what u say, Jamie...

[mariersa]

Treason? I don't think anyone mentioned that! Besiders that's an entirely different matter, you've invented a much greater legal term "Terrorism" and it seems the application of the term is at the whim of whomever is supposedly "in charge". I don't think they intended to go to trial in a Military Court, farm him for whatever intelligence you can get, go through the civilian court process((both levels if desired). All I'm trying to say is "make it fast" why drag it out for years and years unecessarily, give the families of those directly affected the fast track to recovery? if there can be such a thing.

[jamieknyc]

You can read the criminal complaint at this link, if you wish:

http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2013/04/us/dzhokhar-tsarnaev-charges/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

As I said before, Tsarnaev cannot be charged with terrorism on the facts as we know them know. Writers for the Guardian, BTW, are idiots who know nothing about the law.

[mariersa]

To my Friends in America
First....to all of those who were hurt or had a loved one hurt by the bombs.God speed.. Know that all sane people are here for you and understand your pain, but like you do not understand why this insane act happened.
To the brave American people who put themselves in harms way to bring this insideous tragic.occurance to a close God Bless You!
To the perpetraters of the bombings....May you both rot in hell!!
I thank God that my nieghbor is the USA
I am a Canadian

Sorry Angie, I just saw where Toronto has had a chance, foiled plot!!!!great. Apparently everyone is going to get a turn. hmmmm I wonder if eyes are open and minds are re-evaluating their pc posture, is asnyone exempt/immune etc.

[jamieknyc]

Treason? I don't think anyone mentioned that! Besiders that's an entirely different matter, you've invented a much greater legal term "Terrorism" and it seems the application of the term is at the whim of whomever is supposedly "in charge". I don't think they intended to go to trial in a Military Court, farm him for whatever intelligence you can get, go through the civilian court process((both levels if desired). All I'm trying to say is "make it fast" why drag it out for years and years unnecessarily, give the families of those directly affected the fast track to recovery? if there can be such a thing.
Terrorism requires evidence that the act was committed to influence the acts of the government. Tsarnaev has not been charged with terrorism, at least not at the present. Whether the trial is held in a civilian court or a military court, in neither case will it be quick. Many of the prisoners in Guantanamo have been sitting there for years without their cases coming to trial.

[Young pussy and dope]

Either way he'll go to a Supermax prison which is where he should be.

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

I dont care about the political ramifcations of any of this. I just feel sorrow for those that lost loved ones and friends, and for those who were maimed and mentally scarred for Life. Those are the ones that should be taken into consideration here first and foremost! You Know that little Bastard is going to spend the rest of his miserable existence in a cushy prision(if he's lucky enough) to be taken care of by the taxpayers of the United States. And this factor makes me Absolutely Sick!
I'm going to catch flack for my next statement, and I dont really care. I feel that Anyone who does this much harm and death deserves the Death Penality. No ifs, ands, and definitely no buts. And NO extradition. They showed no mercy on innocent people. He should recieve none in return....
Still sickened Cat

[mariersa]

Darkeyes for PM!! Thank you for your definition of what is right and wrong with the modern system of law regardless of locaility and politics currently ruling. Oh please, would you for once stop this South Africa/British reference in your redefinitions of right and law. I'm not saying the system is perfect, here, there, wherever but simply utilize it to maximum efficiency! You can't change the facts, admission of the deed, video evidence of the deed, written evidence planning the deed!! Of course he's innocent, place the evidence, argue the evidence, suppose what may be wrong with the evidence? as I said earlier " My defence your honour is incompetence" and therefore plead " Innocent" because I didn't kill enough of them, bang innocent because of mental incapacity! please, evidence is evidence, knock off the puppy compassion or become a lawyer and argue your position. Fast trial, fast verdict, fast execution! and I'll wager the crowd to witness the event would be at maximum!

[mariersa]

Terrorism requires evidence that the act was committed to influence the acts of the government. Tsarnaev has not been charged with terrorism, at least not at the present. Whether the trial is held in a civilian court or a military court, in neither case will it be quick. Many of the prisoners in Guantanamo have been sitting there for years without their cases coming to trial.

Oh please Jamie get to the point, as best you can stop the lawyer muddle, the whole point is: 1/ Justice should be SWIFT! yes or no? 2/ Confront your accuser! yes or no? either way guilt is guilt! admit it, he admitted to doing the deed!!! the Guantonamo crap has nothing to do with the issue at hand, other than a lame attempt to confuse the issue. What I said was swift, just, justice and then hang him! sorry if I'm comprmising your fees. Possibly place yourself in the 200 something families whom have been harmed by this idiocy! I think that the majority would agree with me>!?

Oh yes you apparently missed the point, Terrorism seems to be a new convenient definition of charging accused of acts that may not qualify under any other act as defined. You brought the treason factor into it, not close although I bet the current "guru" can call it either way, which is the point, so much for "definition".

[jem_is_bi]

Either way he'll go to a Supermax prison which is where he should be.

I agree a place like that is where he should be until he dies.
No real life, as we know it, in a place like that and we are safe from him forever.

[darkeyes]

Darkeyes for PM!! Thank you for your definition of what is right and wrong with the modern system of law regardless of locaility and politics currently ruling. Oh please, would you for once stop this South Africa/British reference in your redefinitions of right and law. I'm not saying the system is perfect, here, there, wherever but simply utilize it to maximum efficiency! You can't change the facts, admission of the deed, video evidence of the deed, written evidence planning the deed!! Of course he's innocent, place the evidence, argue the evidence, suppose what may be wrong with the evidence? as I said earlier " My defence your honour is incompetence" and therefore plead " Innocent" because I didn't kill enough of them, bang innocent because of mental incapacity! please, evidence is evidence, knock off the puppy compassion or become a lawyer and argue your position. Fast trial, fast verdict, fast execution! and I'll wager the crowd to witness the event would be at maximum!
..and just what are the facts, Mars? We don't know and wont until trial.. we think we know because the media tells us so.. I haven't said anything about the guy being guilty or innocent nor shall I here. I prefer to wait until the wheels of justice grind their way to the end. Many people admit to others crimes they did not commit.. they even walk into police stations and confess.. justice needs more than a simple confession. Justice exists to protect the innocent as well as convicting the guilty and must take it's course however long that may be. It exists in theory at least, to prove beyond reasonable doubt that an accused did what he has been charged with and will pay his dues as the law decides if found guilty. I have no doubt there will be any who would love to witness his execution.. I will pass on that tyvm... we have no more right to take the life of a killer than the killer had to take the life or lives of those he killed but we have argued that often on this site over the years... judge him if u must.. we all have opinions about him, but for now I prefer to keep mine to myself and not act or speak out of a vengeful hysteria which threatens justice.. it does nothing to enhance it...

[jamieknyc]

..and just what are the facts, Mars? We don't know and wont until trial.. we think we know because the media tells us so.. I haven't said anything about the guy being guilty or innocent nor shall I here. .

If you read the criminal complaint and supporting affidavit I posted yesterday, the evidence against him is rather damning. Having dealt with the FBI on numerous occasions, I can tell you that they are very meticulous in preparing their case before they give the information to the U.S. Attorney to file papers in court.

One thing I can guarantee you, though, is that justice is NOT going to be swift. The only way that could happen is if Tsarnaev is offered a plea deal, and that is not happening.

[darkeyes]

The evidence against him must be rather damning, I don't doubt it for a moment, Jamie.. but it is in all our interests that whether innocent or guilty what u call over there "due process" takes its course... in a high profile case such as the one we discuss, the FBI and everyone else had better be meticulous and get it right... and it will all take time to make sure due process is gotten right which is all I am saying... I may be a liberal when it comes to crime and punishment, but I no more like to see the guilty walk free any more than anyone else, but I do like to know that everyone, guilty or innocent is treated fairly and properly irrespective of how awful a crime. Swift "justice" is all too often poor justice and mistakes are too often made and as a result the innocent are convicted and sometimes even the guilty walk free... of course this can happen however long the wheels of justice take, but both are more likely with the former than the latter...

[jamieknyc]

sometimes even the guilty walk free... of course this can happen however long the wheels of justice take, but both are more likely with the former than the latter...
'Sometimes" is in Britain. In America, most of the guilty walk free, except for those charged with the most serious crimes. That won't happen in this case, obviously.

Delay actually favors the defendant in the American criminal justice system. Criminal defense lawyers often drag the case out as long as possible for tactical reasons, especially if the defendant is out on bail.

[darkeyes]

Most walk "free" here too Jamie.. the UK is not so different in that respect.. not free without stain on their character but with a criminal record which may well come back 2 bite their arse at a later stage... use of cautions, fines, community service and suspended sentences help keep the prison population down and allow many to make their way in the world by keeping their jobs and contributing to rather than costing the economy... many of course have no job which is often why they commit crime in the first place.. dole money and other welfare benefits aren't that generous that people can survive comfortably on them alone and increasingly the present government is making it more difficult for those with little to hold on to that little whether or not they are in employment..... our prison population is much less than the US per head of population and our crime clear up rates are not that much worse than in the US if at all... and the UK is not such a law abiding nation that we don't have millions of crimes happen every year but again overall the crime rate isn't that dissimilar to that of the US.. but neither do we use prison to quite such the degree that US does and neither should we even if throughout my lifetime the prison population has been steadily growing..

[jamieknyc]

Few criminals become criminals because they don't have a job. That is an idea of white, middle-class people who rarely come into direct contact with such people. People become criminals because it beats getting a job. That is how New York reduced the crime rate to a fraction without incarcerating large numbers of people- simply by making it harder for criminals to ply their trade.