Is sex all we have?

[smokey]

I have been bi all my life... sometimes more so, sometimes less, but always bi... that is not an issue. I have never been in the closet about it either. I don't tell everyone, just the people I care about but still. I come to sites like this and gay.com, okcupid etc. and one thing strikes me... its all about the sex... how big your cock is, how deep you take it and so on. Is that what its all about? Seems pretty shallow to me, and I'm not prude. There is a fairly good argument for a multi-faceted gay culture but what of a bisexual culture? Do we even have one or has being in the shadows of the shadows in both straight and gay culture, left us in a void. While I am all for sex, there has to be something more to being bi than that.

[Cum1st]

For me and other men I’ve had sex with it has been about sex. With women I’ve had sex with, being intimate forms a bond. Wanting to see her again isn’t only a sexual urge. With a man it’s purely enjoyment that won’t kill my marriage. No man has made it known that he would like me to take off my ring.

Most men I’ve had want to go after. Watching a man leave after sex is missed future opportunity, and the urge to keep having fun. I don’t have an urge to cuddle like with a woman.

I guess the Male Bi culture is about sex, at least it is for me.

[elian]

For me it's definitely about more than the sex - for as long as I can remember - even when I was a wee tiny lad I have always wanted to love and be loved - much more than I've wanted sex. .. frankly gender wasn't a problem for me until everybody else made it a problem..

The problem seemed to happen when I started to question whether or not I was gay - because when I saw what my parents, peers and mentors thought of gay people I became afraid to ASK for love..for fear that they would hate me if they found out that I also loved men.. I wanted so badly to love, but I couldn't bear the thought of losing the only support in my life at the time.

Add on several young horny guys pushing boundaries with me sexually at a young age and you have someone who finds it very hard to separate sex from love.

That is why I will always advocate that children need to be allowed to be children, they are special in their own right. There is no 11 year old girl that needs to feel good about herself by wearing a pair of cut off jean shorts with the word ju-icy stenciled in glitter across the butt-cheeks. Advertising and media treat children as though they are adults and they are not..

..but to answer your question - there is no law that says we must all conform to a certain stereotypical behavior..if sex, gender and attraction didn't matter we would be appreciated for who we are in spite of what was between our legs - not because of it.

Mindless sex is what sex toys were made for, and I try not to treat my friends like sex toys..(well, unless they WANT to be treated that way)..

Don't get me wrong, sex feels really good - but I've had my fill of guys who are only there to satisfy themselves..that's not what I want.

Of course, maybe I'm not your typical guy - I love men the way women love men. ..I'm not exactly sure that is the same thing as the way men love men. Of course, there are also times when I love men the way men love women, and there are times when I love men the way men love men..

..but mostly the first one..I can check off the "straight" and "female" boxes on the pr0n sites and be just as happy - although I am definitely male in the physical sense and in a lot of different ways. The whole idea of being desired and loved is just very erotic to me.

[tenni]

I hear you Smokey. I have wondered about this as well. I don't think that most men who are interested in having sex with other men care much more about the guy other than getting off. The struggle of identity seems less clear for bisexual men. I think that many bisexual men do not evolve or mature well as bisexuals. We get stuck between being either heterosexual or homosexual monosexuality instead of identifying as a completely different perspective of bisexuality that involves more than an orgasm with another man or woman. There seems little interest in placing yourself in a "culture" that has unique features. The point that many men who identify as bisexual have no romantic thoughts for men as well as women seems to hold back on creating anything unique..whether it is called a culture or some other term. Particularly, on this site over the past year or so, there is mostly interest in the anatomy of same sex play rather than anything of a deeper intellectual discourse on the uniqueness of bisexuality. Are bisexual men uncomfortable about psychological bonding in some form with another man? Do they feel that if they do or want to that they will lose the aspect of interacting with cross gender people?

[smokey]

I remember back in the 70's I went to a men's consciousness group. I told them I was bi and I was told that I was in the closet, go meet some queers. So, I go to a gay men's group and told them I was bi and they basically told me the same thing, that to come back when I'd sorted it out.

If our culture wasn't so hung up with duality and instead of just straight or gay; bisexuality was a socially accepted option, there would be less people self identifying as either straight or gay.

[Gearbox]

If our culture wasn't so hung up with duality and instead of just straight or gay; bisexuality was a socially accepted option, there would be less people self identifying as either straight or gay.
I'm in THAT choir brother Smokey.:bowdown:
There is a very strong social tide that sweeps all to hetero, and failing that.....to homo...from childhood. Those who float both ways..oh dear.
It's like how Mr Miyagi puts it:
Miyagi: "Walk left side, safe. Walk right side, safe. Walk middle, sooner or later get squish just like grape. Here, karate, same thing. Either you karate do 'yes' or karate do 'no.' You karate do 'guess so.' ".:rolleyes:

Trouble is that heterosexuality & homosexuality are indoctrinated to be such strong opposite and opposing 'forces' that it's very much against popular perception to view both being fully workable in one person. If you are asexual, that's fine coz you have both negative aspects of the two sexualities. But if you are bi and have both positive aspects, it comes across as a duality.
Best thing to do is scrap hetero & homo and just have a big old spectrum where the individual can fumble onto their own bit/s.:)

Yes we'll all have to explain our likes & dislikes etc, but I already do that, so I don't see why everyone else couldn't.lol

[elian]

I agree as well - and in a way I am starting to see some of those changes although it will probably still be some time before it truly happens. I was amused when the folks at church tonight seemed happy someone recounted a tale of the options for "male" and "female" on insurance forms were disappearing or relabelled..."married" also seems to be changing..

..this is sort of far out there, but in the same realm of thought..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLF-TQtEEnU

[semibi]

Great questions. The answers you're getting are interesting too.

I consider myself bisexual, although I have never tried same-sex sex. I enjoy this site, especially for the information and some of the interactions. It is interesting on the chat, though, that so many jump straight into sexualized talk. Two lines in they're asking very direct sexual questions or offering facts about their arousal. That doesn't work well for me. I have enjoyed the occasional sex chat. But, I didn't come to this site looking for that. I came here to understand bisexuality and to interact with people who experience it. It often seems like the sex is the main issue, if not the only issue, for many. Not the case for me. But, I'm the exception, it seems.

[void()]

But if you are bi and have both positive aspects, it comes across as a duality.

Which I find odd for a few reasons. Given a large portion of the world is or aspires to have a Western culture, the idea of duality creating a whole, ought to be natural. Eastern culture, *picks up Taoism (just as an example)* has two creating one. The Greeks at one point believed similar of Chaos, it was light and dark together. Well, *picks up Christianity (another example)* here's good and evil making God, for God made Satan and therefore Satan is an aspect of God, Jesus being another.

So, I keep resonating back to "what the heck, Edgar?" It seems this idea does not transmit for sexuality, oddly. * wears this really befuddled look, turns and ambles on muttering something about how sporks do as the tin says and nobody bothers them, rambles on then in unintelligable chants about sporks, silly putty, beans, and an occasional "more beer, eh" *

[Hypersexual11]

I read and re-read the post and I don't think I get what you are looking for. Is there more to bisexuality than sex? Well, we usually live a full and satisfying gay or straight life. The lifestyle we choose to display to the world gives us all the fulfillment that we need. The only thing missing from our displayed world is sex. So the bisexual relationship will normally be based on sex. There is a small number of people that can live a poly life but that is rare, and sometimes hidden as well. As the replies state, a black and white world can not be made to reason that someone can be both black and white.
Concerning this site, I will freely admit with many agreeing that this site is on the edgier side of bisexuality. There are many that are tamer and more 'relationship' based.

[Gearbox]

Which I find odd for a few reasons. Given a large portion of the world is or aspires to have a Western culture, the idea of duality creating a whole, ought to be natural. Eastern culture, *picks up Taoism (just as an example)* has two creating one. The Greeks at one point believed similar of Chaos, it was light and dark together. Well, *picks up Christianity (another example)* here's good and evil making God, for God made Satan and therefore Satan is an aspect of God, Jesus being another.

So, I keep resonating back to "what the heck, Edgar?" It seems this idea does not transmit for sexuality, oddly. * wears this really befuddled look, turns and ambles on muttering something about how sporks do as the tin says and nobody bothers them, rambles on then in unintelligable chants about sporks, silly putty, beans, and an occasional "more beer, eh" *
Yes it is very odd, and I do believe that duality as a whole IS natural, yet in the west it's division's are more comfortably viewed as wholes instead, and not simply fragments of 'one'.

How many times do we hear, "I've been straight all my life. I adore women, but lately I've had a strong urge to suck a cock. What's going on with me?", from blokes who 100 years ago would think that the devil is taking over them?:tongue:
We don't hear, "I've been vanilla all my life. I respect women, but lately I've had a strong urge to tie the Mrs up, call her a bitch and do her up the 'wrong un'. What's going on with me?", from blokes who are the slightest bit concerned about it.:rolleyes:

Nope! The latter is FUN, and when the deed is done, Mr Vanilla still respects women etc and carries on as 'normal'.
The former however, has got some rethinking to do about his whole sexual identity, as if it's highly significant.
It's only significant coz that's what we are brainwashed to believe.

The times I've tried explaining to gay dates that my liking for women has no significance to my liking of men, and they don't have to 'cure' me. You'd swear I was trying to convince them that I'm Dr Jeckle AND Mr Hyde but was fine with it.:bigrin:

[darkeyes]

Sex is all we have if that's all we look for and want out of life... and some, whatever their sexuality think and feel that way.. sex can be and is incredibly important to greater or lesser degrees..but for most, so is love, friendship, affection, family, career, the environment, conservation, peace, humanity and or a million and one other things... is sex all there is? Much as I love sex, and it plays a massive part in my lfe.. not a question I have ever felt the need to ask.

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

If all a person Has in their lives...imagine what a lonely and Boring life they actually have. Sex is a fantastic thing, but people should let it becoming all consuming, and over-powering. Its Just sex. Yesss, I know this is sacrilege coming from me, but hey, its my view.
If a person cant see you for other than just a piece of meat to get off with, or a fuck n toss..then that person isnt worth your time or energy, Sweetie. :}
Just my humble 2 cents worth..:2cents:
Cat

[Realist]

My preferences are, that sex would be not all there is.

I may be in the minority, but it's certainly not all there is, for me. I feel comfortable in relationship roles only and all of my male connections have been in one of three categories:

1. One, the type of relationship I most enjoy, is romantic. I've had four mm relationships that fit this role.

2. The 2nd type, which has been the most prevalent, is Friends with Benefits . Within that type, there are two variations...one involves kissing, cuddling, but not what I'd call "Making love". The 2nd one would where we'd be more attracted because of common interests, with sex sometimes resulting. My longest lasting same-gender relationship was similar to the last variation. Not ideal, but it worked well.

The 3rd would be a platonic relationship, with few common interests, other than sex. I've had two relationships where we were exclusive sexual partners; we'd meet at mutually agreed upon times and places, for sex, then we'd go our separate ways. Neither of those were very rewarding, or long-lasting.

[12voltyV2.0]

Well--I have to say that I surely enjoy sex as much as anyone--but as much as I do enjoy it---that is not something that is a prime thing in my life---it surely does not make up all of "what I am about."

I know that this is a sexually related site---and some people who come here get kinda pissed off if we don't just talk about sex all the time in both posts on the board or in the chat room--but as anyone who knows me at all----I do like to post up and share some photos I have taken, or some new song I like and think it might be of interest or some link to some "up lifting" videos that I come across out on the web---with there not being much of a response to them at all---and it has been the case that I have gotten some less than favorable remarks either posted or sent to me---with some of them being our troll or trolls, but not all of those negative responses came from such people.

I'd like to think that we do have more than "just sex" going on in our lives and that even though an important thing to us----it is not all that we focus on or spend time on. I know that I surely have many interests of all kinds, with sex being just one of many interests and activities.

That is why I do like to post things on here that have nothing at all to do with things sexual in nature.

I guess as much as anything---it is because I do not wish to be defined by my sexuality---that as yet, I have not yet "come out" about my bisexuality to but a select few in my personal life beyond some family members and of course, those I "become involved with" in some fashion.

I just do not want to be pegged into what I have found are many people's narrow and to my view, very distorted concepts of and ideas about what bisexuality is. I just don't care to have to explain it to everyone unless it becomes Germain to them for some reason. To me--telling people I am "Bi" is sort of like the way the military and intelligence communities let members in on classified information, it is released on a "need to know" basis.

I would rather have people think about me as an artist, photographer, writer, good cook, boat captain, that I like my "off the beaten path" music and many other things, not that my sexuality is not exactly "normal." Hell, it is already a hard thing to deal with when some people I meet realize that I am not a tea party Republican type, and instead am "an evil, god and country hating liberal."

[smokey]

I came of age in the 70's and I discovered I was bisexual at a fairly young age... late teens. I have never seen any reason to be closeted about it. All my lovers have known about it, though I always assure them I do not play the field when I'm seeing someone, only when I'm single. All my good friends have known I was bi too. What I have found missing is some sort of community for bisexuals. Gays have a community, so do blacks and all other minorities and marginal groups but bi's do not. It seems sometimes that the GLBT community only added the B grudgingly... bi community has next to no representation at gay pride days. Its better than it was but still little. Also I have never cared for the "gay" scene. I don't consider myself as gay, I'm bi. To be grouped in GLBT doesn't seem legitimate to me. As a bi man, when I have played the field, my expression of my sexuality changed regularly. My sexual stance is different with women than men, of course, but with men it changes too... sometimes more masculine sometimes more feminine, sometimes a top, sometimes a bottom and what I chose affects how I feel and behave. These contextual changes separate me from the gay community who I've experienced look at bi's with a great deal of skepticism. As I age I find this most disconcerting... especially as I am reentering the scene after years outside of it.

[donttellnehismy]

Im looking for more than just sex... I don'twant a blow and go i want a friend and a lover... someone i can talk to... inbox me if this sounds like you

[BiBedBud]

I wish I could edit this thread’s title. I think it should be entitled “Is sex all we have keeping us together as the ‘bisexual community’?”



It didn’t seem to me like the OP ‘smokey’ (mountains?) was asking the question from a nihilistic perspective of there being nothing more to life than sex. Nor did he seem to refer to our individual needs in a sexual/romantic relationship. Rather, it seemed to me (correct me if I’m wrong, smokey) like the OP was asking us bisexuals about what we have in common, that isn’t entirely about sex.



What is the “glue” that binds us bisexuals?



Other groups have ties that bind that are ethnic, cultural, linguistic, religious, political, situational, etc.; or some shared history, purpose or dream.


Somehow it would seem; we’re lacking that, as “bisexuals”. I think this is something that we can and therefore MUST change. In fact, we should consider this change we must bring about, to be an obligation towards the fulfillment of our individuality and our very humanity. HERE IS MY BISEXUAL THEORY/MANIFESTO IN BRIEF:

(In certain countries) homosexuals have finally won their lawful rights to “marriage equality”; in part by demonstrating how alike homosexuals are to their heterosexual counterparts, who already enjoyed the many benefits of a legal framework that supports their marriages. To be clear; we are talking about a constellation of legal rights and frameworks that establish (a societal) order that is suitable for child-rearing and the private accumulation of wealth. This includes such things as survivor benefits/rights, tax benefits/rights, laws concerning inheritance, property rights, credit/banking conventions, et cetera; including an enormous number of social conventions about inviting someone and their spouse. Let’s call it “coupledom”.

For far too long, we bisexuals have been subjected to the tyranny of coupledom!

It is time we rise-up and advocate for our own human rights; our own rights to our own – equally valid and even more justifiable – desire for marriage equality as bisexuals!

We bisexuals should DEMAND marriage equality!

We should DEMAND that a full-fledged legal marriage should be established by the state; to recognize and validate that a legal marriage can be formed by up to *three* consenting adults. (!)


CONSIDER: If the basic societal purpose of marriage is child-rearing and a construct for the people’s concentration of wealth; three parental figures in a family, are certainly better than “only” two parents. For reasons of survivability alone; three parents are better than two. For financial reasons, and not just to save money on excess housing, but think estate planning and how this idea could potentially *halve* the number of ‘estates’ (thereby further concentrating wealth and cutting-out the lawyers and the tax man, in one smooth swoop)!

IN SUM: The money rationale for a legal three-way marriage is *unassailable*. Certainly, a three-income household is going to be better-off than a two-income household. OR, a three-way marriage with two incomes is more likely to be able to provide for a third partner to “stay at home” for child rearing or perhaps some other purpose, like writing the next great novel, or reinventing the economy. Arguably, society could be better served by a three-way marriage, than by a two-way marriage, which can completely dissolve when (only!) one partner leaves for whatever reason. This is why three-way marriages could potentially offer greater stability and endurance/longevity.

ALSO: How many people today, have a marriage that is touched by infirmity or injury; or who have spouses who must work abroad or otherwise away from home for long periods of time; or other situations that force one partner to carry a very heavy burden, all on their own. Would it not be better and easier, in a three-way marriage; for reasons of practical, emotional and financial support?

The environmental/ecological rationale for a three-way marriage is also undeniable; if it means higher housing density. Not to mention, much, much better use of the master bedroom!

[elian]

Yes, unfortunately "polygamy" has been cited by the "moral majority"in a "slippery slope" justification for not allowing "gay marriage" .. Personally, if you have the resources to take care of a large family and the relationship is not abusive it's none of my business what people do in their own bedrooms. Of course, what you are asking for is public recognition and acceptance. Have you ever considered moving to Utah?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygamy#Mormonism

In some cultures and traditions it is not out of the ordinary but I'm afraid in our Western culture you will have quite a battle to allow such a thing..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygamy#Legalization

[tenni]

Some good points bibedbud

I agree with your triad principle or it might be a closed loop relationship.

Just where do bisexual rights enter and monosexual values exit? Who has the moral right?

Recently, I read a woman post something to the effect that her bisexual husband had better not have sex with a same sex partner or there would be X to pay. Clearly, this woman believes that it is her right to come to a bisexual site and make such statements. After all she is the "good" heterosexual with coupledom on her side. How dare her bisexual husband think that he has the right to have same sex. Interesting, no wonder bisexuals do not stand united against coupledom. If he wants pussy again, he must comply. He has no moral compass according to his wife.

I think that smokey makes another interesting point about being out as bisexual but then he reverts to coupledom as if he is not entitled to have a closed loop relationship. He may want to have a couple relationship based on what he wrote? Then there is the bisexual belief(some) that who they have sex with is no one else's business. They do not have to come "out". There is a valid position there as well.

[smokey]

"It didn’t seem to me like the OP ‘smokey’ (mountains?) was asking the question from a nihilistic perspective of there being nothing more to life than sex. Nor did he seem to refer to our individual needs in a sexual/romantic relationship. Rather, it seemed to me (correct me if I’m wrong, smokey) like the OP was asking us bisexuals about what we have in common, that isn’t entirely about sex.



What is the “glue” that binds us bisexuals?"



Other groups have ties that bind that are ethnic, cultural, linguistic, religious, political, situational, etc.; or some shared history, purpose or dream."


Exactly.

[Long Duck Dong]

lol.....I used to work in with and belong to a LGBT business group that had their fingers in a lot of pies, so to speak, and it was a very functional group... until the politics entered into it and the * what group was entitled to what * thinking started..... needless to say that the house of cards came crashing down and the group splintered ......

a lot of the issue was not the * equal say and equal rights * aspect that was being used, but that a lot of the community did not back their groups, specially the bisexual people... and they did not want to be dragged into the full * bisexual rights for bisexuals * fight because most of them just wanted to enjoy their lives, and the community spirit......
most of the bisexuals said no to a push for triad marriage as something that they wanted as part of the bisexual agenda... not because they did not think that it was a nice idea... but because they did not want it to be a bisexual only aspect......they wanted it to be the same rights for all equally aspect because that was what we all had been fighting for, with the same gender marriage and civil union marches in NZ.....and nor did they want to feel like they had to have a triad marriage or relationship as part of their bisexuality

within the community there was lots of small groups that enjoyed aspects like hunting, fishing, cards, quilting, sailing, indoor cricket etc.... and there was the sexuality vs sexuality teams and the LGBT vs everybody team... but it was all fun and games, jokes and laughter..... and partners were more than welcome to join in and have fun........

then the politics stated.... the same thing that has surfaced in this site with the whole * its a bisexual only place, fit the criteria or fuck off * thinking....and thats why we do not have a community as it once was.....and thats why there are so many small groups within the site that have bonded over their common interests, sexual or otherwise.....

most of the bisexual groups that exist and function outside of this site and others, all have the same aspect, they function very well as long as people do not try and dictate what bisexuality must stand for, be about and what criteria the rest of the world must confirm to.... because trying to create a bisexual niche in society is not going to help bisexuals and bisexuality, its only going to serve to drive a lot of bisexuals away because they do not want to have to conform to somebody elses idea of what bisexuality is all about and how we should be living our lives......

if bisexuals want to be monogamous, let them, if they want triads, let them, if they want closed or open relationships, let them....but like the heterosexual and gay communities, allow our sexuality to be diverse in our choices and maybe there will be more of a community spirit.......

[BiBedBud]

First of all, thanks to everyone following and participating in this thread, and thanks especially to our OP smokey.

Some interesting points have been raised since my own post above, and I’d like to address them, if I may.

It is clear to me now that very, very precise language is going to be essential for us to make sense of this properly, from the start. So, for starters I’d like to be clear that what I am discussing when I talk about “marriage equality for bisexuals” is specifically the notion of “bi-marriage” or otherwise we can call it “bigamy” which specifically refers to the practice of having two spouses (so that would make a ‘threesome’ or what I clumsily referred to as a ‘three-way marriage’).

To be even more specific (and in order to realize the maximum societal benefit); I would say that “marriage equality for bisexuals would limit marriage to any three consenting adults who are not blood-relatives.” (Note, additional support for the legalization of bigamy could be won if “we” drop the “blood relatives” rider; since in certain (especially Islamic) cultures; when a woman is widowed, her brother-in-law is expected to ‘take her in’. I don’t like this thinking, and in Western societies we have social services for that kind of thing; so I’m not inclined to advocate for this; particularly since it could give rise to children being born who are simultaneously half-siblings and cousins; which might be problematic for the human genome, longer term.)

I’d like to avoid any prospect of “polygamy”, which would necessarily refer to a marriage of more than three people (since “bigamy” covers that already). For a number of reasons, I’d like to avoid any notion of legalizing and subsidizing polygamy (which I could argue is a very different thing, posing much social and moral hazard).

IMHO, the strength of the arguments that advocate for bigamous marriage legalization are tremendously strong (but much less so for polygamous marriage, i.e. more than 3 spouses enjoined); and I’ll address some in a moment. HOWEVER, I don’t want to derail smokey’s thread, so I’d like to keep on-topic about “the glue that binds us” as bisexuals (in just a few paragraphs from this one).



Furthermore, there is something else I’ve noticed on this topic, that I think bears examination. It would seem to me that mention the word “bigamy” and the immediate image seems to be of one paternalistic husband mistreating his two exploited and downtrodden wives. This is a prejudiced view that should not be allowed to pollute/dominate the concept of “bigamy”. Frankly speaking, as a bisexual, I can see why it would be AWESOME if a wife could enjoy two husbands (who also enjoy each other and one another and one then the other and the other again with the other in-between, sometimes right on top, or on bottom……… but I digress!) Ahem!

This brings me to a more practical point. In many parts of the world, most notably in the two most populous countries in the world, India and China, there has been a decades-long [extremely misguided and I’ll even say ‘social evil’] practice of female infanticide or other variants thereof such as “sex selection” (involving ‘amniocentesis’ and “selective abortion” of female foetuses). There are many reasons why this has been happening; and I don’t want to further divert discussion into this very, very grim and sad subject. BUT I bring it up because it has resulted in a terribly ‘skewed’ sex ratio in many parts of China and India and other countries also. I know for a fact that in many parts of China and India, there are only like 82 or 88 potential brides, for every 100 potential grooms. This means that there are men who want to marry and have children/families; but who cannot find wives.

This is a very serious problem!

My solution? Social acceptance (and full legalization) of two men having the same wife; with all three enjoying equally all the rights, privileges and benefits of that bigamous marriage. Behind closed doors, if these two men want to screw each other in addition to their shared wife; and they’re all good with that; this could be the elegant solution to a number of very, very big problems, indeed. (Of course, it wouldn’t be essential; and society needn’t presume that there is any same-sex sex going on; although, there certainly would be if I were involved!)

This would mean that my concept of “bigamous marriage equality for bisexuals” should be limited to “a legal marriage between any three consenting adults, of mixed sex, who are not blood relatives” (whether a man and two women, or two men and one woman; or an inter-sexed person and any two other consenting adults).

To be legalistically precise: There would be a blood test for all three, in order to get a “bigamous marriage license”. The blood test should confirm that all three are not related by blood; and that there is “chromosomal variance” represented among the three. This would disallow XX+XX+XX (three women) and also XY+XY+XY (three men), but would allow for any other combination that includes a mix. So, my own “ideal” would test as XY+XX+XY (otherwise known here as an MFM threesome); of if there is an inter-sexed person who might themselves have a three or even four digit chromosome, this would also pass the “bigamous marriage blood test” unambiguously.

Thinking politically: If we drop the “not related by blood” rider; the support base for the idea would increase (by allowing two sisters or two brothers to share a spouse; support could be won from “Abrahamic” quarters and people in countries with skewed sex ratios). If we drop the “chromosomal variance” rider; the definition of bigamous marriage would also legally permit three gay men to marry bigamously, or alternatively, three lesbian women to marry bigamously (and frankly, I can’t think of a problem with that). But then, this would seemingly put the “traditional marriage between one man and one woman” at a relative disadvantage, economically speaking. This raises a question for further discussion: Could this relative disadvantage be sufficiently offset by tax breaks/incentives alone? (Perhaps it could.)


Long Duck Dong has raised some interesting points as well. I know it’s true; part of how “marriage equality” has been won by homosexuals, is the clear messaging that gay people want the same things as what straight people already had/have; and so it played on that similarity with the “majority”. (Nobody likes to be a proven a hypocrite.) This was a critical part of how gay people won the right to marry; because it is the foundation of their anti-discrimination argument.

Clearly, the prospect of bigamous marriage equality for bisexuals cannot take the same tack. I would even expect gay people who’ve tried to “fit in” with coupledom, to be among the chief detractors of this idea. I could argue this is probably the hard line between the gay community and the bisexual community.

TO BE CLEAR: I’m not saying that “bigamous marriage equality for bisexuals” is right for every bisexual. I’d just like to see a world where bisexuals have the option (but not the obligation) to marry into a bigamous marriage (consisting of three people who are enjoined legally and all that). Just like I don’t think every heterosexual person should get married (or have children, for that matter); I equally don’t think that every gay man should get gay married, or that every lesbian should tie the knot either. Frankly, I’ve always thought (moralistically) that I’ve got no stake (and should have no say) in who any consenting adult can marry; or even whether they should marry.

What does matter to me – what matters very much to me (I think) – is that the *option* should be there.

Perhaps I’ll never marry; and perhaps I’ll never marry bigamously; but if it works-out that way; why not? I should have that option! What would be the harm? If there is no harm, then there is no legal or moral justification to ban it. I think I should have the (optional) right to marry (up to) two people; provided that we’re all consenting adults.

Marriage isn’t for everyone (whether straight, gay or bi or whatever else). But *the option should be there for everyone*.

Right now, bisexuals have no right to marry the two people (they could potentially) love. I would argue that’s discriminatory, from a moral perspective; and that on a practical level in societies with good access to divorce; there is no rationale behind this discrimination. If the majority of people can marry who they want (one spouse at a time, but perhaps different spouses, serially); what could be the additional harm of a stable three-way bigamous marriage between three consenting adults? If you want to marry two people, both of whom want to marry you; you’re in a disadvantaged minority that is wrongfully oppressed by a puritanical majoritarianism that enforces coupledom. This is wrong, and we should stand against it, on moral grounds.

Right now; the right to marry is firmly established for heterosexuals. It is increasingly there for homosexuals. But, us bisexuals are not even in line for our version of ‘marriage equality’, as this would entail the further expansion of the definition of legal marriage to include a third person.

DON’T MISUNDERSTAND ME: I’m not saying that every bisexual person should want to be in a bigamous marriage in order to conform. I have neither the energy nor the inclination to take that stance; and I haven’t. Nor am I talking about anyone’s sexuality, or the labels they wear, or who they’re having sex with under what circumstances; or if there’s appetizers at the orgy or only cocktails. None of that has any bearing on what I’m discussing

What I’d like to see is a political awareness culminating in a political initiative that advocates on behalf of bisexuals who want the equal right to marry the two people they love. This is a serious issue with bearing on; child rearing, survivor benefits, tax breaks, wealth creation, et cetera; which is wholly a different set of issues from sexuality, labels, practices, norms, acceptance, expression and whatever else people might differ on.

There is a principal at stake, and it’s called “equality”. Either we have it or we don’t. Either we fight for it, or it’ll never be given to us.

Fight the tyranny of coupledom!

Go to bed with at least two other people, and imagine what married life would be like if it were the three of you together.

[Long Duck Dong]

I tend to agree..... lol

I am the sort of person that wanted to have different people come to the site so we could become a loose LGBT community in a bisexual site because there are LGT and Hetero people that have a interest in us as a community and maybe more... and I see marriage as the same, its not just male and female, its male, female, intersex / trangender / sexual / gender queer etc.....so my view of marriage is not limited to males and females..... so my ideal of marriage is something where any blend of triad is a option as well......

I long for a return to a communal spirit where acceptance was a lot easier such as the pacific islands where the cross gender people are accepted and embraced and its seen as normal behievour....and yeah I would love to live in a world where any type of relationship was accepted as a option for people........

I do owe you a apology, I did not mean to come across like I was saying that you have a sexuality biased agenda, my wording was not as clear as it needed to be in that respect..... my stance is born from the issues I have had with dealing with people that are so hell bent on pushing a bisexual agenda that they have destroyed groups and communities, including online communities like this one by pushing people away for not being bisexual or * worshiping at the feet of the bisexual gods *.....

it comes back in part to the OP and asking where is the community ? where is the communal spirit ?...and I think of how it did exist in my area, it was real and tangible until the sexuality politics came into play.......and I can not help but wonder if the reason why triad marriage would not be a united movement, is because the politics of sexuality is something that will be used as a wedge in any attempts to unite people of any sexuality for a cause..... and that society would not fight against it because they do not agree with it or support it but also as a way of striking back at the people that drove them away, in the first place.....

[smokey]

The way I look at it is that bisexuality represents a third gender that has pure lust at its heart and soul.

As bisexuals there should be something to teach our straight and gay brothers and sisters about the nature of desire, love and relationships.
There should be something we can teach as post-gendered individuals (note I did not say transexual) about the nature of masculinity and femininity and the gray areas in between.
There should be something we can teach about the sexual aspects of the spiritual.
There should be something we can teach about the politics of gender and discrimination.
There should be something we can teach about art.

In other words bisexuality should have something to contribute to the growth and maturity of society at large instead of lurking in the shadows of both the straight and gay communities.

[tenni]

The way that I look at it smokey is that bisexuality is not a third gender. That is often referred to as transexuals. Instead I wonder if you mean a third option for sexuality. Monosexuals are heterosexuals and homosexuals. They are only attracted to one gender. We, bisexuals' attractions are not restricted to one gender. We are the opposite of monosexuality. We are bisexuality.

Indeed we can first learn to articulate the sexual aspects of the spiritual that are not suppressed by restricting sexual expression to only one gender attraction. I read recently, that bisexuals should promote the positiveness of our sexuality. The joy of being able to be sexual without gender restriction.

Bibedbud
Does the word "bigamy" have too much negativity connected to it? Legally, a bigamist is a person who marries more than one person as I understand it. It doesn't usually connect to living under the same roof at the same time but that does happen. I support your position about "closed loop" relationships beyond the coupledom concept and that such relationships should be legal. I like your idea about promoting marriage equality for bisexuals as including three partners. Questions might arise for the opposite gender person in that closed loop relationship. If two men and one woman enter into a bisexual closed loop /bigamist marriage, I see it working for the two bisexual men. If the woman is heterosexual it may work. If the woman is bisexual, would she not also want to include a woman? We then have the numbers increasing beyond three. She may want the two men but also a woman for her own bisexual needs.

[smokey]

I mean third gender as separate from trans-gender. A bisexual is not for the most part in the transition from one sex to another... instead a bisexual can respond to both sexes. We can be with one person, masculine and with another, feminine. I mean gender in this context, not physically but emotionally.

[elian]

I used to think of my sexuality as a curse, but in a world full of hurting people I am glad that I am able to form deep, compassionate, loving (and yes, sometimes lustful) relationships with a person for more than what is between their legs.

Isn't that enough to teach?

[Long Duck Dong]

I mean third gender as separate from trans-gender. A bisexual is not for the most part in the transition from one sex to another... instead a bisexual can respond to both sexes. We can be with one person, masculine and with another, feminine. I mean gender in this context, not physically but emotionally.

makes perfect sense to me.... but I am not strictly male or female in mind or body and while its seperate to my sexuality, there is a good chance that they are a aspect of each other

the aspect of crossdressing with some bisexual people can be along the similar lines.....a aspect of the person that can merge in with their bisexuality without actually being a aspect of bisexuality ( pertaining to the sexuality as a whole and encompassing all bisexuals )

it just requires a deviation from the strict male / masculine and female / feminine sex/gender *rules * and a allowing of the diversity of humans

[Long Duck Dong]

I used to think of my sexuality as a curse, but in a world full of hurting people I am glad that I am able to form deep, compassionate, loving (and yes, sometimes lustful) relationships with a person for more than what is between their legs.

Isn't that enough to teach?

and how do you teach it ? personally my idea of * teaching * is not to tell people thats what bisexuality is, but to let them see me and the way i interact with others, I could explain how my bisexuality works for me..but there are times that its easier to people to see the way that I can hug, kiss and bond with people without it all having to be about getting laid.....

the trouble with * teaching * people is that people can often tell people how bisexuals live, think feel and desire.... but all too often, they end up dictating how bisexuals should be living, thinking, feeling, acting and being seen and how the people in their lives should confirm in relationships and marriages to one where the bisexuals sexual wants may not be infringed upon.... and thats something that is going against us as bisexuals because our individual wants, needs and desires vary from person to person but the * teaching * aspect is only along one line and that is bisexual males want and need sex so do not stop them

[elian]

Maybe we should form a new country, you know - like one that respects freedom, liberty and justice for all?

..200-something years later I guess it turned out to be a little more complicated than that because people -are- social beings - so much of what we do involves interacting with others and implicit social contracts..

Is funny .. the venerable "William Penn" founded my great state here with the ideal of "freedom to believe" - but while everyone else thought the result was great, he thought it was a miserable failure because he had made an assumption that if everyone was free to choose what they believed, then they would obviously think "just like he did" - which of course didn't happen. I think a lot of people make the same mistake.

So what you are essentially asking is how can we live with differences, give everyone a choice to live their life as they see fit and still get along.. Or maybe you don't really care what society at large thinks and you are only concerned with preserving the sanity of bisexual people.. As you can see we're still sort of trying to figure that out with our "great experiment" over here. There is enough land that theoretically people who really want to be isolated could do that, but then you start thinking about us vs. them and it can get even worse.


and how do you teach it ? personally my idea of * teaching * is not to tell people thats what bisexuality is, but to let them see me and the way i interact with others, I could explain how my bisexuality works for me..but there are times that its easier to people to see the way that I can hug, kiss and bond with people without it all having to be about getting laid.....

the trouble with * teaching * people is that people can often tell people how bisexuals live, think feel and desire.... but all too often, they end up dictating how bisexuals should be living, thinking, feeling, acting and being seen and how the people in their lives should confirm in relationships and marriages to one where the bisexuals sexual wants may not be infringed upon.... and thats something that is going against us as bisexuals because our individual wants, needs and desires vary from person to person but the * teaching * aspect is only along one line and that is bisexual males want and need sex so do not stop them

[Long Duck Dong]

lol you remind me of a speaker I once heard... and they were talking about how acceptance and tolerance and community will not work as long as people have a vision of whats right and wrong with the community about them and what needs to be done to change it.......

it was a guy from the US....a black guy... and he stood up on the stage.... and said, I am going to show you how to be more accepting and tolerant of me and other black people.....

now all the people in the room that are not black, brown, tan... you all get up and move to the sides of the room... its not that we do not want you in our community but you are not black, so move..... and now... if you are not african american, move to the side of the room... now... if you are black and african american and male...welcome to our community of acceptance.... and if you look around you, you will see all the people that need to learn to accept us and show tolerance towards us......

now I want all of the people that have a partner of color, that are racially friendly, support equal rights and will give one dollar to a black man on a street, step into the room..... ( everybody at the sides of the room stepped into the room )... and the guy said thats why acceptance and tolerance does not work... that is why community does not work.... we can not see beyond the color of the skin, the sexuality, the white / blue collar, the gender.... and now that everybody is in the same room, in the middle of the room and its a blur of colors, gender, sexuality, age, race, belief, religion, culture, we have a community...... so why does it not work outside of the room ???

why is there the ju klux klan, the white power, the white supremacists.... why is there the black power, the black supremacists ? where did they come from ? were they born from hate, pure unadulterated hate? no, they have their own community... and its not as if they hate you, they just do not think that you belong in their community.......

I am black, I am gay, I am Hiv Positive, I am a ex vet... if you are going to hug me, do not do it because I am black, because I am gay, because I have hiv, because I am a ex vet..... if you feel a reason to hug for any of those reasons, you are accepting me into your community and you are accepting me because I fit into your community but if I was a black man with tattoos, a criminal record, you may not accept me, you may tolerate me but you may not accept me and I am still the same man but maybe not part of the community you belong to.....

now I am a black, gay, hiv positive ex vet that has tattoos and a criminal record... I am not a simple man any more... there is more than one community I can belong to but many of them do not want me because I also belong to communities that would welcome me for the aspects that you would not welcome me in......

at the start of my speech, I showed you how a community works.... a gathering of like minded people.... in this room.... different colors, races, creeds, cultures, sexes, genders all here to hear me talk.. and nobody really saw me as me until I asked the room to seperate so they could see how a community in a community in a community works......

if you are going to accept people, do it without conditions, rules or limits otherwise you do not truly accept anybody and when you create a community... the moment you turn somebody away for not being right for your community, you start the chain reaction ...... I am telling you now, you will not hug, accept and embrace everybody, do not even try to.... but do not turn those people away that do not belong because most times they will know that they do not belong and they will move on, some will stay and change because they do belong, they just need the help and the time to settle in......

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


it is a speech that has remained with me for years..... and to answer your question, elian..... I share drews vision for the site, all welcome, come as you are...... I may not agree with people, I may not agree with stances, opinions or ideas..... but nor would I tell a person that they do not belong here, that they are not welcome here or that they are not wanted here........ there is plenty of room for all..... but it does mean that I have to learn to make room for those people in there as well.....

we have a bisexual community, its the people that seek advice, understanding, feedback, a place to chat and meet people, learn about bisexuality and what it can mean to be a bisexual partner, its the bisexual and non bisexual people that accept us, learn that we are not perfect people, that are our partners, lovers, sex partners etc and as drew has said, they are welcome to come and go as they please ( well the trolls may be a exception )..... and here, it really doesn't matter what society says and does outside of the site.... its like a room full of people that just care and accept ( for the most part )..... and that is the type of community that people want.... they can ignore the dickheads, the annoying people, the pains in the ass....because there is still really good people here.....

so thats a awesome community, a near perfect community, the community will accept you for you are and embrace you, and a couple of them will try and railroad you out of their community that they are trying to create, using the site as their platform...... so I am not interested in trying to improve the world or society by way of teaching them about bisexuality but I could stand beside you and others and share how bisexuality works in my life for me....

a simple example would be the fight for same sex marriage... most of the opposition is not against lesbians or bisexuals marrying, its against two males marrying... the majority of pro same sex marriage rights people are not gay males, they are a large part of the community that believe that people all have the right to express their love and many of them may not agree with homosexuality but they are united in their belief that as a community of people moving towards a goal.... and in doing so, they are learning about the people they are standing beside and talking with, rather than the man with the microphone preaching about homophobia and discrimination cos everybody has heard it all before.... and the only people that really care about that, are the people looking for a target to blame .....

I know how most people can get along.... they need to stop trying to create the community and realise that its already there.... its the exclusive community that they are trying to create that is not working.....