Gay, Lesbian, Bisexuals and God, "oh my"

[whichway06]

I am sure this subject has been beat to death on this forum but I have a friend that is the cause for this letter today. But a little about my back ground, I was raised in a Cathlic believing home on a farm with Mom, Dad and complete with Grandparents. At a very young age I could easily see all the contidictions in the Cathlic Church which led in on a twenty year study of the Bible. I was well basically condmened by the local Cathlic church for leaving them to study the Bible outside of their relm.
Now for my friend, I have known her for more than half of my life, great gal but she is one of the Christains that speak hate concerning gays, lesbians and bisexuals. But get this, she is bisexual, when we were younger she had several girlfriends that she had sex with even though she was married. Some where along time she had been convinced that being bisexual is evil so she no longer has sex with women and speaks out against same sex relationships. Every time I see her she talks about sex and many times she talks about how she wants a guy with a ten inch dick, oh how christain that talk is. I know she still longs for sex with a woman, you should see the way she hugs my wife, many times both hands on my wife's ass and a very tight hold of it.
But to the issue of gays, lesbians, bisexuals and God, I was talking with her and she made some comments about a gal she works with being bi and I told her that calling this woman evil is, well evil in it's self. Which brought up this subject. From my long studies and research of the Bible there are many parts that are just contridictions and a large part of the Bible is simply misunderstood. My friend also made some bold contridictions after I explained to her that being gay, lesbian or bisexual is not a choice but more of being the way a person is born. I pointed out to her that hundreds of studies show that most people that are into same sex relations do not have the ability to think any other way. Her response was, "well they need to simply change their minds". I asked her, what if they choose not to or cannot change their minds because that is how they were born. Her second response was, " then God will hate them".
So there you have it, a typical christain response to people being who they are because that is the way they were conceived in the womb in a time frame that takes less than a second. I asked her if God hates the mentally handicapped, she said no because they could not help the way they were born, "oh really" I replied. I asked her some questions she could not answer. By the way we were starting to gather a crowd of people that were very interested in our conversation.
I asked, what and who is Romans talking about, you know the part where christains say God hates gays and lesbians? She stood as most christains do, Romans is condemning same sex, sex. I really do not think, if you believe in God that God hates anyone because of the way they are born, get real logical about it. If you are born with a brain that cannot see a difference in the sexes can you be held responsible? Can you be expected to just change your mind because a segment of the population say you should? Is same sex relationships destroying the way of life as we know it? Is it causing crime there for should it be made illegal? Who is Romans talking about? I question that it is speaking about same sex relationships. This is a very long subject that I have looked at I believe it is poorly written causing misunderstandings with most christains.
Then I asked her about inter sexuals, does God hate these people because they have been born both male and female? I asked her if God hates chimera's? I explained to her that she should love gays, lesbians and bisexuals because God says that she should. This part I had to explain to her in a very long detailed speech but here I believe it will be understood quite easily. God says to love your naighbor period without exception, that is the figure of speech used here and it literally means, "without exception". God says to love your enemy, this is also a figure of speech that really means treat your enemies with love and kindness to win them over.
I told her I have not been able to find any place in the Bible that says being gay or bisexual is a crime against God and that the rest of the population should hate them. I asked her to show me in the Bible where it says all these things, she is very good at quoting Bible verses but she could not come up with not even one verse. Life should be about love and respect for each other, it does not matter if you are a guy and you chose to live your life with another man or if you are a woman and chose to live your live with another woman. I think bisexuals are some where in the middle of this sexual issue of desire for the same sex. I truly believe that it is very real that bisexuals have the ability to love both men and women sexually. I have to believe that if one believes in God that God does not hate gays, lesbians or bisexuals. How can bisexuals be condmned because they were subject to a crossed wire at conception, they can't be held liable, not any more than someone that is born mentally handicapped.
In Romans where it is said to speak about gays and lesbians, I haved talked in length with several scholars and they also doubt that it is speaking about gays or lesbians spiecifically but rather more about sexual perversion that maybe on the same lines as sex with animals. But there you have it, some of my views on this subject which I believe is a very very large topic. I know most people have their own views on this matter and that's great but the real importance is not the why, when and where but rather "love your naighbor". Loving your naighbor involves respecting that person. Respect is something that is lacking in the christain church, most disrespectful people I know call themselves christains, imagine that.
I hope you all have a great day and I have a big hug for all you gay, lesbian and bisexual people on this forum.

[knfusdgrl]

ww06, I haven't been here long, but I think this is one of the truly worthwhile issues brought up on here. I'm Presbytarian, but I'm not exactly an avid Church-goer. However, before coming to terms with my "special situation" ;) I often felt "dirty" or like I was damned, absolutely destined to go to hell. Worse yet, no one has told me otherwise. The only person that knows is my best friend, but she has no concept of God or the Bible. I've asked my aunt what she thought on it, and she said that if a person is born that way, then nothing can be done about it. I agree completely.

[Diane54]

Having been raised in a Fundamental Christian home and taught that God loves sinners but hates homosexual relationships - I had a hard time comming to grips with my bisexuallity. My brother, who has studied the Bible, believes that the King James Version is infalible. I reminded him that a translation is at the mercy of the translater and most of the Bible was translated by people with a dictionary in one hand and a Hebrew grammer in the other which tells me they couldn't speak Hebrew and weren't familiar with the language. So some of the words will be mistranslated.
Studies have shown that the refferences to homosexual acts being condemned refer to the pagan temple practices and not loving relationships.
If "God is love" as stated in the book of James then loving relationships are an expression of that love regardless of approval by fundamentalists.
Remember NO fundamental religion WHATSOEVER supports freedom, all are oppressive. Jesus, himself, never mentioned homosexual or any other sexuual relationship - whether he was against or supported either or none. That is it'self should tell us that if it wasn't important enough for him to preach about than it isn't important.
Tha arogance and bigotry is why I had to leave the Christian church and go in search of God. I firmly believe that Jesus would NOT be allowed in most Christion churches today.
Since when are people classified by their bedroom activities, anyway.
:2cents: :2cents:

[sdimk]

ok well i'm still trying to reconsile sexuality and religion. i was raised a jahova's witness and quite frankly i see it as the only true religion. however, even within JW's the organization says that since they ARE human they CAN make mistakes, and that jahova will correct them along the way. i believe that also. so i guess i'm kinda waiting on them to have a big epiphany over the whole gay thing. lol.....

1corinthians 6:9 in my bible says
What! Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men

other versions i have found
- Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! The sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, passive homosexual partners,5 practicing homosexuals
-Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,


GOOD LITTLE BIT (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/?qid=20060801061435AAAigpu)

anyway.... i still pray to God that if i am doing something wrong to please forgive me or show me a way to correct it. i just want to be happy and whole and i'm trying to find a way how. frankly i think that i'm a good person at heart and that God is with me even if i have sinned- which i'm not sure i have.....now all i gotta do is find a good argument when i tell my mother :tong:

i think i rambled a little...sorry

[Herbwoman39]

I feel bad for people who have such a limited view of an Infinte Being.

God is NOT human and does not have human flaws, therefor how can God hate?

God is above the pettiness layed upon Him/Her/It in "holy" doctrines.

The Infinite Being that *I* have a relationship with loves me no matter what I do or who I love. There is NO condemnation because in our hearts we know for OURSELVES (Not because some book or other person tells us so) what is right for us. If people would just take personal responsibility and make up their own minds, the world would be a far more tollerant place.

Hate in God's name: That concept makes me VERY angry. To use someone who isn't there to defend themselves as an excuse for hatred is deplorable.

As for your friend, she's obviously allowed herself to be brainwashed to become an automoton who has given up thinking for herself.

Forgive me. I'm positively LIVID! I'll stop here before I say something totally rude

[Tynary]

well this subject enrages me, although the close mindedness of your friend is so ludicous that it actually makes me laugh a little. I'm not sure I can give a good opinion on this since I am an atheist and I really don't like the religions in the world (of course that is perhaps a selfish thing of me to say since I love the beauty of nature and believe there is something bigger than the lives we live but I say I'm against religion because there isn't one that says Tynary is God and she can do what she likes haha)

If there was a God (who wasn't me) and this being is truly beyond all our mortal understanding and boundaries then it is absolutely certain that this creature would not hate gays or bisexuals or lesbians because it doesn't care. I don't think God hates sex either or is bothered by it or even cares since after all isn'tthis creature supposed to be above all those human needs. I find it ironic that we try to give God human emotions and qualities(How ever that does bring up the question can god love?)
I REALLY DO NOT apprieciate being compared to someone who is mentally ill thanks. Its like your saying 'oh its not their fault they're strange they were born that way' before you no it their saying 'let us help these people by discovering a cure'.
Well I think my bisexuality is a gift. As in I actually think I'm better of than non bisexuals. I almost feel sorry for non bisexuals since they can't experience this world I live in. I also think sex is a free beautiful thing which can be an expression of love, passion or art. I do hate people who dislike my sexuality. I have a 'friend' (yeah right I hate the guy) who says gayness is against his religion. If it wouldn't result in me going to prison I'd rip his head off.
I think your friend is upset inside because deep down she knows she is bisexual and is ashamed of it. She hates herself most of all and she hates other LBGs cause they represent what she loaths about herself. Often the most biphobic/homophobic people are actually bi or gay and just ashamed/
wow I ramble way too much. I'll stop before I get more angry and say something really offensive or punch through my computer screne!!

[DiamondDog]

I'm agnostic with buddhist tendancies.
if there is a "God" (I put it in quotes since just using the word can connotate so many negative images/viewpoints for people) and if there is such a thing I don't see it/them as being the judgemental mean Christian "God".

[canuckotter]

I love Canada. :) One of our biggest churches is the United Church. My father-in-law is a minister in that church, and he's already performed at least one same-sex marriage, and was proud to have been asked. Most of the United Churches around actually have a little rainbow flag on their signs somewhere to say "Hey, come on in". ;)

[Herbwoman39]

I love Canada. :) One of our biggest churches is the United Church. My father-in-law is a minister in that church, and he's already performed at least one same-sex marriage, and was proud to have been asked. Most of the United Churches around actually have a little rainbow flag on their signs somewhere to say "Hey, come on in". ;)

Man, if Canada wasn't so friggin COLD I'd consider moving :-)

[moonlitwish]

Now honestly if 'god' created us this way wtf would 'god' hate us for being this way when what we do doesn't harm anybody?? And that goes for any 'god'/eternal/infinite/being. Just doesn't make much sense huh? :2cents:

[julie]

I am committed to my Christian faith and, like someone else mentioned earlier, i'm not sure how the Christian church would cope with the person of Jesus Christ..

I rather suspect that its response would be not dissimilar to the Pharisees response 2000 years ago... where they judged Jesus by their own rigid 'religious' doctrine and practices. Jesus challenging of this blinkered approach by offering a creative and 'whats the most loving thing to do' perspective stirred up such fear that they plotted to silence him and went to enormous lengths to ensure he was ultimately crucified by the Romans...

Over the years of my trying to reconcile my faith with the lack of love the 'Church' and 'Christians' often demonstrate... I have recognised that there seems to be two main perspectives...

One, the fundamentalist approach, which treats the word of God as literal and (in my opinion) seems to operate from a place of fear and loathing of anyone who does not conform to their interpretation of what the bible is actually saying to us today..

The other being the more creative, some might say 'liberal' church which operates from a more open interpretation of the bible... and believes that Christs death and resurrection was the ultimate act of love and atonement intended for everyone.. not just those members of society approved of as worthy by the fundamentalists..

..My hesitency in refering to this latter group as 'liberal' is because to demonstrate such faith, love and humility in trusting God to be... well God, i guess. A higher power who works in mysterious ways that as humans we can never fully fathom, only trust, that ULTIMATELY will always respond with unconditional love, no matter how much injustice is witnessed and railed against. Now, to me, that is not liberal (wishy washy?) to me, that is fucking radical and a symbol of true faith.

..Regards the behaviour of the woman you describe, whose words and actions seemingly bear no connection to the religious doctrine she spouts so vehemously... I refer back to my comments of the behaviour of the Pharisees 2000 years ago... and can only speculate that she is so indoctrinated by the religious messages she has taken on board over the years... that somehow she bypasses her true nature i.e. is in total denial of those parts of her so overtly at odds with the religious doctrine she has absorbed so readily...

Defence mechanisms are there to protect us. Her unconscious denial of her own sexual orientation could serve to protect her from confronting her true nature. Which may lead to her having to face total rejection, not only from her religious community but also from the God she believes in, who's harsh judgement would determine her fate as rotting in the pits of hell and damnation for eternity.

My heart goes out to her.. and all those folk who deny so much of the person they were created to be.. who have failed to accept that the unconditional love of Christ extends to them too...warts and all.. unconditional love.. nothing more, nothing less.

just my :2cents: of course!

julie :female: xxx

[LouiseBrookslover]

Dare I mention that even the supposed liberal redemptive power of the gentle Christ is based on the premise that you believe in the semi-Satanic, psychopathic Old Testament God, the apple, and the incredibly ridiculous concept of Original Sin?

[julie]

Dare I mention that even the supposed liberal redemptive power of the gentle Christ is based on the premise that you believe in the semi-Satanic, psychopathic Old Testament God, the apple, and the incredibly ridiculous concept of Original Sin?

Why shouldnt you dare to mention what you believe to be true?

My perception of the Old testament God is different to yours (i am, fortunately, not influenced by the Catholic Churches doctrine though).. And i dont share your assessment/? experience of God being semi-satanic and psychopathic... i also believe that much of the bible is metaphor and is best viewed creatively, as opposed to literally...

And that is only my perception, therefore of no greater or lesser status than your perception L.B.lover just different...

Julie :female:

[steve10557]

I think we use 'god' more than 'God' uses us. If God is, then it is truth, and whatever burden of humanity we lay upon it is purely us. But then God is a tri-sexual according to christianity, maybe that's something to aspire to? :)

__________
"How can I believe in God when just last week I got my tongue caught in the roller of an electric typewriter?" - Woody Allen

[whichway06]

Wow Julie, I think you hit on some really important things, thank you. The Bible is mostly figures of speeches with many different types, metaphors being one. As for the Old Test, it is spoken mostly in metaphors such as when God says I will stike you down, that is an itim a figure of speech, what is meant by this is that I will allow satin to stike you down. He is speaking in the eastern lingo. The Bible was written to an eastern culture so it must be viewed as such.
I believe you are correct about unconditional love, this is very important, think about unconditional love when you look at your wife, husband or partner. Our relationships are to be based on this unconditional love so if your partner one day says hey I am bisexual your response should be I still love you deeply. Someone responded to this post about Jesus not preaching against gays and lesbians in the context that it just may not be important enough and I have to agree. Jesus loved all without conditions.
I believe deeply that most of the hate towards gay, lesbian and bisexual is because of the lack of this unconditional love. I work at loving people, when I am around people I work at having the mind set to treat people with respect, smile at them, talk to them and just be kind. Over the years I have learned to read people and some I just stay away. But all in all if the christain church practiced the Bible we gays, lesbians and bisexuals would be loved by all.
A loving relationship of any kind is to be loved it's self. How can you not love a relationship between two people that is honest, open and loving? Practice thinking about what your thinking about. Keep in your thoughts every day to treat people how you want to be treated and you will be blown away by how people treat you back. I know a gay man that is liked by every one even the ones that speak hate about gays because of how he treats people, you cannot help but love this guy because of his over whelming kindness he puts forth. It's that love thy naighbor thing that really works, thanks, hugs to all and I hope you have a great day loving.

[Long Duck Dong]

lol I can't resist this

the christians that read thru the bible searching for reasons to bash others, now to go back and read the bible again, they missed a few important parts
btw I am a wiccan witch, not a christian lol

the 10 commandments is gods law for his people, 10 simple and easy to read, laws....thats all.... the rest of the stuff like adulterors, fornicators, witchs, homsexuals etc etc etc are NOT mentioned in the ten commandments........ they are mentioned in in parts of the bible that clearly state they are songs and letters to different groups of people....hence they are words not written by god.. but by people saying they are writting the word of god

*god* shall judge ALL his children according to the truth of their hearts, NOT their actions.....and *god* asks that we don't sit in judgement of others, for we all are getting judged when the time comes
do christians think that *god* would sit there and listen as some christian says to him " oh I'm a good person, I condemned a lot of your children, based on their actions, and I attacked their beliefs and I refused to allow them to have the same rights as any man"..... lol.... mmmm read ya bible......he tells the chirstians NOT to do that..... but to live their lives according to his rules, and he will deal with all mankind at judgement day
god is not interested in who attcked who and why, but if your heart and mind belong to *god*... and if they are true to god and gods way, then christians wouldn't be attacking anybody at all.....and before any christian tells me its cos they are not prefect, tthats utter BS.... I am not perfect either..but i decide what comes from my fingers and my mouth...and I make the choise of ignore or attack and condemn

[ophelia_in_red]

Now honestly if 'god' created us this way wtf would 'god' hate us for being this way when what we do doesn't harm anybody?? And that goes for any 'god'/eternal/infinite/being. Just doesn't make much sense huh? :2cents:
Unfortunately, God makes all kinds of things he doesn't like. Like snakes and adolescence and prawns and fig trees and The Artist Formally Known As Prince.

;)

I'm a staunch atheist, but one fascinated by the Bible, Christian tradition, and the way that Christianity has influenced Western civilisation (!) over the last two thousand years. One of my favourite things to do is explain why the God I don't believe in doesn't hate non-heterosexuals. Sodom and Gomorrah is the best story to complain about, imo. I mean, for a start, the hero of the story offers an angry mob his two virgin daughters so that the mob won't have sex with some angels he's got stashed in his hovel. I mean, seriously. What gallantry.

[Avocado]

Sounds like you maybe need to cut loose from this "friend" mate.