Heroes?

[LoveLion]

I was talking to a co-worker today about the concept of having personal heroes, and if it was reasonable to use another imperfect human as an example to live up to, or if we should just try to live up to our own ideals. We came to the conclusion that people's heroes are idealised in their heads anyways, so really its the same as living up to your own ideals. Was just wondering what your thoughts were on the subject, but mostly wanted to ask: who are your heroes if you have them? I would like to know what kind of people our commuity considers a hero.

Personally I have a few Heroes:

Julius Ceaser: He took a unstable democratic society, turned it into a dictatorship, improved it drastically and was loved for it. He was a very strong man and wasnt afraid to do what was necessary to make change. In my opinion this is what we need today. It may not be a popular view but our democracy has become flawed in my opinion. ITs at a state now where our politicians take 5 months off a year where nothing gets done and everyone else has to work, it takes years to make a desition that needs to be made in a week, and they keep buying themselves leather jackets, expensive dinners and vacations. Dictator is a dirty word in our society, but with the right dictator it could be the best system possible. No more bureaucracy and corruption holding back progress. Ceaser is proof that a man like this can exist and is truly someone to live up to.

The Greeks: Not really a person, but a people. Iv read alot about ancient greece and it alot of the way they lived seemed far supiriour to the way we do today. Especially the way they deal with sexuality and coming of age.

William Shatner: Well, because he made a career and a legacy about being himself and making fun of his own quirks. Not only is he a HILARIOUS comedian (watch Boston Legal if you dont beleive me), but when his career started to fade he rebuilt it by being William Shatner and not taking himself very seriously. I think alot more people need to live this way. plus hes Canadian :bigrin:

[DiamondDog]

I haven't found any yet.

[Lorcan]

I had a personal hero when i was a kid. He was a race car driver. He had lost his hand in a crash and had a hook attached there. Not only did he still race, but he could run laps around the other race car drivers.

It was like life tried to get him down, but he persevered and excelled.

http://www.3widespicturevault.com/70spics&vitals/a02.07.04_037_MAG_FLM_0070_1.htm

[trip1]

Chuck Yeager... His will to press on no matter what... I have a few that mean different things to me but he comes to mind first

[skiflydive]

Thomas Edison

[Long Duck Dong]

lol here i go... starting world war 3...

the people I admire, are not the normal heros that gave us great technology advances or changed the world for the better...
the people i regard as heroes, are the people that showed us, just how stupid the human race can get in their narrow minded ignorance... these people are the anti heros of the world

despite seeing what these anti heroes have done... we still are making the same stupid mistakes.... and so... these people are my heros



hitler... and before anybody goes ape... read why..... hitler was the one person to truly show the world just how far, biased discrimination can go....in his mind he was creating the one true race.... however to most of the world he was a mad man that needed a bullet.... but he showed the world exactly what we are still trying to do....
christians against the gays...
muslims against the non muslims.....
christians against the muslims, etc
the death penalty for criminals
the wars against iraq and kuwait etc etc

US astrophysicist Philip Morrison, who helped create the first atomic bomb
this man took a idea, and made it reality.... then realised what had truly been created..... not just a bomb....but the destruction of the human race thru the desire for power and control....he later opposed the nuclear arms race.... a race that nobody could win, but everybody could lose

Richard J. Gatling, creator of the gatling gun, set out to create a weapon so devastating that it would make the idea of war so horrible that war would become unthinkable thus ending all wars. He did succeed in creating a weapon that was very devastating for its day, but the effect was that it made killing much more efficient, thereby making his invention a complete failure when considered in light of his intended purpose.

I love richard gatling..... his logic was simple... to stop people killing other people, you make something that makes a big mess when it kills them..... sighs..... its a bit like the logic that the more, you scream and yell at people, the more chances you have that they will all sit down and listen quietly to you..... * grins *........maybe in a few 1000 years people will work out that it doesn't work that way lol

[LoveLion]

the people I admire, are not the normal heros that gave us great technology advances or changed the world for the better...
the people i regard as heroes, are the people that showed us, just how stupid the human race can get in their narrow minded ignorance... these people are the anti heros of the world

I think we may need to get you some help, lol, Just kidding.

I found it very interesting reading your last post, and there is a lot of truth there.Sometimes it an take a man like that to open the world's eyes. It makes you winder what the world would be like today without men like Hitler. Most would probably say better, but who knows what could have happend. Unfortunately most people dont learn from these examples.

I just hope your not aspiring to become the next hitler :eek: :bigrin:

[animated_Alan]

I think my heroes are anyone who live their lives regardless of how "society" views it. I am in the middle of reading a biography of Cole Porter now and the relationship that he and his wife shared was certainly different than that which would be considered mainstream. (Ok, I admit that I love his music too, being a Broadway fan for a LONG time)

My parents too. They raised me to be who I am. My father was a high school football coach. He and my mom have five sons. My father NEVER tried to get any of us to play football. I grew up disliking football immensely and when I became the singer/actor I became in high school, my father attended every one of my performances. We don't always have a lot to talk about, but I love and respect my father and mother so much. It made me very proud when they asked Kara and I to sing when they renewed their vows on their 50th wedding anniversary.

[Herbwoman39]

I think that heroes are situational when we're discussing human beings. Throw someone into a crisis and either they will rise to meet that challenge or they will be overcome by their circumstances. People that rise above the situation are inspirational. They show us the potential that humanity can reach.

With that said, my mother is a nut. I love her, but she can be a real fruitcake.

She's also my hero.

When I was 9 years old there was a terrible motorcycle accident. She hit a patch of gravel, flew off the road, hit a tree and the motorcycle hit her. She was doing approximately 75mph. The helmet she was wearing split down the center. It saved her life.

She broke her right leg in two places, her left leg in three, her pelvis on the left was crushed. All of her ribs on one side were broken, her lung was punctured and her heart shifted.

She was in intensive care for 7 months. She died three times during that 7 month period. They said she would never walk again. She said "Watch me.".

After they released her from the hospital, she stayed in a hospital bed in the dining room because she still couldn't walk and there was no way she could make it up the stairs.

Then, one day, I came home from school and she called for me. As I came into the dining room she told me to stay where I was. That was when she stood up and took her first steps. :bigrin: She looked like a giant toddler. It was, well, there really aren't any words for it.

When I remember the person she was then, I am inspired to be so much more;to push myself just that much harder, because if she can learn to walk again to the point that she picks up 100lb sheep and throws them in the back of her truck, how can I not try just that little bit harder?

Oh and on top of all that, my mother is a 20 year breast cancer survivor.

At the beginning of this post I said that I believe that heroes are situational. My mother is still going strong. She works part time as an in-home care nurse. But she is in a mentally abusive relationship and will not leave because she's afraid. She was also less than encouraging with my life. According to her I was too fat to be an actress and I shouldn't be a psychologist because they have such a high suicide rate.

She is heroic when it comes to her health issues. In the rest of her life, she is very much human :)

[rockstarvomit]

joey ramone. he took what he had and made it the coolest thing in the world.

jean o'hara. she went after what she wanted despite everyone else.

gene simmons. marketing genius. genius in general.

jello biafra. charismatic crazy man with a cause.

rivers cuomo. heart breaker.

robert plant. wailing sex.

dave grohl. badass.

gina and joe randazzo. rocknrollers gettin' through it.

[ancestral]

no heroes to speak of, ive always tried not to consider one human being more worthy than another. as for richard gatling, maybe in a way he was more successful than we think, personally ive known alot of military people, and of everyone whos gone to war and come back, i can truthfully say not one of them wants to go back, "war is completely senseless, would the people who start wars really start them if they were actually out there fighting on the front lines? hell no they wouldnt" this quote goes further to say "war is a nightmare you cant wake up from, ive seen more death and destruction than anyone ever needs too" these are the two most common quotes i hear.

[Aleksandra]

Lovely subject.
Well my personal hero is my ex husband. He's pretty famous writer in my country, and sudenly one day when i was first year of college i saw him in the hall and then all my dreams came true. We started a relationship that ends with marriedge and later with divorce. We get divorced from some other reasons.

But on intelectual level, before i met him, and now even more, he's something really really special in my life. Beside him i always feel like essential princess, ancient queen, call it what you want. Simply those hours with him, only in talking or something else are totaly out of time.

ummm,,hmm, the other heroes...well, Serbian king Petar I, norwegian writer Knut Hamsun and Johan Wolfgang von Goethe.

I was never fond in such tyrants like Hitler, Cezar, Napoleon.

[happyjoe68]

lol here i go... starting world war 3...

hitler... and before anybody goes ape... read why..... hitler was the one person to truly show the world just how far, biased discrimination can go....in his mind he was creating the one true race.... however to most of the world he was a mad man that needed a bullet.... but he showed the world exactly what we are still trying to do....

Hitler as a hero? Words do not fail me, only the reluctance to get banned from this site

[innaminka]

Victoria Australia is full of heroes at the moment.
Thousands of them - men women old and young.
They're dirty, grimy, tired and probably half of them are volunteers that aren't being paid whilst they're off work.
The 'firies" we have fighting our incredible bushfires that are sweeping the East of our state - have been for 3 weeks and prognostications are it'll be another 8 weeks before they're out - unless we have rain which is unlikely as we're in the middle of a once in a thousand year drought.
Try these two sites;
www.cfa.vic.gov.au Go to updates and look at the maps......
http://abc.net.au/goulburnmurray/ - look for the picture gallery.

[Long Duck Dong]

mmmmm inminka..... now thats what I call a true hero... the unspoken heros all fighting for a single cause.....EVERYBODY...

go aussies, ago... and may spirit send you the rain you desperately need

[Long Duck Dong]

happy joe

read what i wrote.... before you think i support ANY of hitlers twisted ideas

I said, I admire what he taught the world......and that lesson was the stupidity of racial / sexual discrimination... its a lesson a lot of people in the world should learn

I can't stand the neo nazi / skinhead / hitler loving so and so's in new zealand.... but I accept they are humans and are entitled to basic human rights
thats why i admire hitler...he showed me just how destructive and devastating, biased thinking and sexual / racial discrimination truly are

[Chaia]

Amelia Earhart

[diamond_tether]

Batman. He had the courage and tenacity to swallow his personal fears and use them as a positive tool to enact justice on those who otherwise may not have seen it. He kept a gritty and very realistic sense of himself and the world around him and was willing to use his own strict sense of ethics and morality instead of the common one.

Lao Tzu. Attempted to live a life of simplicity and authenticity that was somewhat out of the current social norm of his time. Something he encouraged in others.

Emma Goldman. Because she was a feminist anarchist, who didn't just voice her beliefs and get arrested for it. She published political literature, she traveled to see the truth with her own eyes, she asked questions that no one wanted voiced, and she fought the good fight for as long as she was able. She knew damn well that she was feared and her views were unpopular; she kept at it, though, because she belived that someone needed to voice those things, and that others needed to hear them.

[darkeyes]

In another thread I wrote that I had no heroes. I hold to that. There are many I admire greatly but hero worship is a dangerous and unwise attitude. Admiration and respect even great admiration is one thing, but 2 often we allow ourselves to be blinded by the ideal we are presented with, and let down later when we discover that our "hero" was a flawed individual, prone to all kinds of human failing and also often a nasty piece of work, and less than worthy of our hero worship. Unless we truly know a person we are unable truly to make a judgement on the value of his or her deeds.

I prefer to have flesh and blood people I am able to admire for what they have achieved to improve the human condition, or our planet, or merely carry through a personal dream. I read a great deal and like to know just who, what kind of person I am reading about, as well as the immense difficulties they encountered in making their mark. Whether they were wife beaters, adulterers, honest, racist or flawed with any of the myriad of human frailties.

My father thinks me sad when I say I have no heroes, thinking the myth should be the example, and the flaws put 2 one side. I argue that the myth is dishonest and misleading and it is far more important to know the person, as by doing that we can so much more admire the deed, or contrarily, debunk the myth and expose the admired, the hero if you like, for the crass and inadequate clown that she or he may be. It is better to live without heroes than pay homage to those whose lives and deeds are not deserving of it.

[darkeyes]

lol here i go... starting world war 3...

the people I admire, are not the normal heros that gave us great technology advances or changed the world for the better...
the people i regard as heroes, are the people that showed us, just how stupid the human race can get in their narrow minded ignorance... these people are the anti heros of the world

despite seeing what these anti heroes have done... we still are making the same stupid mistakes.... and so... these people are my heros



hitler... and before anybody goes ape... read why..... hitler was the one person to truly show the world just how far, biased discrimination can go....in his mind he was creating the one true race.... however to most of the world he was a mad man that needed a bullet.... but he showed the world exactly what we are still trying to do....
christians against the gays...
muslims against the non muslims.....
christians against the muslims, etc
the death penalty for criminals
the wars against iraq and kuwait etc etc

US astrophysicist Philip Morrison, who helped create the first atomic bomb
this man took a idea, and made it reality.... then realised what had truly been created..... not just a bomb....but the destruction of the human race thru the desire for power and control....he later opposed the nuclear arms race.... a race that nobody could win, but everybody could lose

Richard J. Gatling, creator of the gatling gun, set out to create a weapon so devastating that it would make the idea of war so horrible that war would become unthinkable thus ending all wars. He did succeed in creating a weapon that was very devastating for its day, but the effect was that it made killing much more efficient, thereby making his invention a complete failure when considered in light of his intended purpose.

I love richard gatling..... his logic was simple... to stop people killing other people, you make something that makes a big mess when it kills them..... sighs..... its a bit like the logic that the more, you scream and yell at people, the more chances you have that they will all sit down and listen quietly to you..... * grins *........maybe in a few 1000 years people will work out that it doesn't work that way lol

I think I know what you are trying to say here Long Duck, but holding Hitler up as a hero does stretch credibility a bit far here. Also any who create or are involved in the creation of weapons are by definition extremely misguided if they believe that weapon can do any other than be responsible in the hands of others for the deaths of so many millions... occasionally a person whose idea goes wrong or whose invention is used to do wrong can be admired for his intentions, but not when it comes to the creation of weapons of any kind.

[darkeyes]

Julius Ceaser: He took a unstable democratic society, turned it into a dictatorship, improved it drastically and was loved for it. He was a very strong man and wasnt afraid to do what was necessary to make change. In my opinion this is what we need today. It may not be a popular view but our democracy has become flawed in my opinion. ITs at a state now where our politicians take 5 months off a year where nothing gets done and everyone else has to work, it takes years to make a desition that needs to be made in a week, and they keep buying themselves leather jackets, expensive dinners and vacations. Dictator is a dirty word in our society, but with the right dictator it could be the best system possible. No more bureaucracy and corruption holding back progress. Ceaser is proof that a man like this can exist and is truly someone to live up to

Julius Caser was a product of a corrrupt society and was a self seeker who wished to shape that society in his own image, feeling threatened by the patrician society in which he lived. Most dicatators do "good works" to keep the masses on side if they can but in the end they are tyrants. Julie was no exception. No sytem in thrall to a single person can be called good, and Cuba, with Castro, a man and a system I admire in so many ways is no exception either, but is a far greater model to consider good than ever was Julius Caesers Rome.

Dictatorships do not eliminate corruption they perpetuate and exacerbate it. From Stalins USSR, Napoleons France, Hitlers Germany and Castros Cuba corruption was endemic. Caeser had he lived would have ruled over an Empire as corrupt as any. His nephew and successor Augustus who ruled long after Julius Caesers demise, like all Roman Emperors ruled a political system which was rotten to the core and is evidence of that claim.

[Long Duck Dong]

lol dark eyes..... hugs ya

you understand what I am trying to express.... its not what the person did or who the person is, that i admire, but the lessons that they taught the world about the stupidity of their actions that i admire..... somebody had to make the mistakes,... and they were the people that did it

i could have used the pope that passed the decree outlawing different groups. .. or the us goverment that supported slavery, instead of hitler, but the lesson is the same....they caused pain and suffering and death in order to achieve their views... we can learn from that and not repeat the same mistakes.... but sadly we don't

philip morrison helped create the atomic bomb..... and when he saw how it was used.... he turned around and opposed it, greatly.... ... i admire him for realising the sad truth...nuclear power can benefit the world.....but instead it was used to destroy parts of it... and as long as nuclear weapons exist.... the whole world is not safe

richard gatling sincerely believed if he showed people the destruction and stupidity of war and killing, that people may realise the decades of damage that it creates... sadly, it didn't work......and we also repeated the same mistake with the nuclear arms race.....i admire his vision.... his wish for trying to bring a halt to war and killing....i just have a problem with the way he did it

the only type of warfare that I do admire, as much as it goes against what i believe.... was the celtic war system that existed at one stage
both clans gathered on the battle field... ONE person from each side, went into the middle and fought til the death.... and he won for the whole clan.... then they went home again, to tend the crops, and take care of the clan.....
strange but true.....

[LoveLion]

Julius Caser was a product of a corrrupt society and was a self seeker who wished to shape that society in his own image, feeling threatened by the patrician society in which he lived. Most dicatators do "good works" to keep the masses on side if they can but in the end they are tyrants. Julie was no exception. No sytem in thrall to a single person can be called good, and Cuba, with Castro, a man and a system I admire in so many ways is no exception either, but is a far greater model to consider good than ever was Julius Caesers Rome.

Dictatorships do not eliminate corruption they perpetuate and exacerbate it. From Stalins USSR, Napoleons France, Hitlers Germany and Castros Cuba corruption was endemic. Caeser had he lived would have ruled over an Empire as corrupt as any. His nephew and successor Augustus who ruled long after Julius Caesers demise, like all Roman Emperors ruled a political system which was rotten to the core and is evidence of that claim.

Wiktionary Defines Tyrant as:

1. An absolute ruler who governs without restriction
2. A harsh and cruel ruler
3. An oppresive and harsh person

By this deffinition Ceaser was not a Tyrant. Nor would I consider Castro one either. ok, Stalin yes, Hitler yes. They both murdered their own people and instilled fear and/or hatred to control.

Ceaser was definition 1, but not necessarily 2 or 3. He took control of a corrupt system by force and of course he was not the nicest to his enemies, but neither were the senators or the Roman republic or even today's elected officials. He took control of a civilization that was corrupt and unstable and brought a it to order and an level of power that had never been seen before in history. But more importantly he didnt use fear, or hate. He used the passion of his people, he made Rome safe, and he built them a great civilization, not to mention the roads, aqua ducts, order, and security he and his fellow romans brought to the lands they conquered (its like the scene in Life of Brain where all the anti-Roman group are sitting around saying "What did the Romans ever give us?" and then saying "Well other then the roads, and the aqueduct, and the security, and the trade, but what else have they ever given us?"). His people loved him, they did not fear him. And because of that he was not a "tyrant". He was a dictator and an Imperialist, but these arent bad things, they are just political systems that have been promoted as evil by our own governments. So many people have been brain washed that dictatorship = evil. Well, I look around and I see a government that changes leader every year or so, and I see a government that is corrupt, one that gets nothing done because they want 6 months off a year, a government that folds to foreign requests, and cant stand up for our people. To me that is evil. If a man like Ceaser wanted to take control of my nation, then I would support it fully. Stop and think, is it really so bad that one man have the power to make decisions? Things would get done alot faster, there wouldn't be constant bickering between politicians while the problems just keep growing. Of course there can be corrupt dictators and bad ones, but there are already hundreds of corrupt and bad politicians working our government. Ceaser however was not one of these bad dictators. He proved that a dictatorship can save a nation and make it stronger and better for the people, and even for the people it conquered.

Castor is another good example of this. despite what the Americans say about him and how they demonise him because of his Cuba's communist beliefs. He is loved by his people. I have been to Cuba, and I have visited farms as well as going into Havana and there is alot of support and love for him as a leader. I dont agree with some of the ways he runs things, and there is till so much poverty in Cuba, while he enjoys many luxuries (the same goes for Bush and America though), but I would not call him a tyrant either.

Ceaser proves the western notion that dictatorships are oppressive, evil, and terrible for the people are not entirely true. He made an effort and risked everything to take control of a corrupt and inefficient government and created a much better state for all. That is why Ceaser is a hero of mine. And he is a worthy hero.

[Nara_lovely]

My heroes are the people who never give up.

An idea, a personal trait, an inner strength...whatever it is that makes them push forward, overcome the obstacles. Someone who does so with pride and integrity...not at the cost of others...but someone who brings out the best in those around them too.

[Lisa (va)]

Not sure if they would be classified as heroes, but I do admire my parents.

I grew up in a simple life and they taught me life's lessons that school doesn't.
Treat others as you wish to be treated.

Lisa

hugs n kisses

[stuporman]

Without a doubt, Bugs Bunny. He showed me how a rabbit, armed with only his branis and his balls, can take on bullies armed with shotguns and pistols and win. And he can also carry a tuba in his back pocket.
V. From V for Vendetta. WE need guys like him today like never before. If we hippies/freaks/offbeats are going to take back what's ours, we need to get off our fat asses and do soemthing. Remember, they got the guns but we got the numbers. Their goal is to divide and conquer...and they've done a frighteningly good job. What would they do if we ALL walked off the job? Fire all of us? Put us all in jail? No..they'd have to reckon with us.
Jim Morrison. he was a shaman/visonary/revoltuionary who advocated drinoing, drug use, and public fucking. His Classicla imagery was increible....I can see myself on that mountain with Dionysis......stealing keys, setting people free. I know Crazy Jim would have loved V.
:tongue: :bibounce:

[LoveLion]

V. From V for Vendetta. WE need guys like him today like never before. If we hippies/freaks/offbeats are going to take back what's ours, we need to get off our fat asses and do soemthing. Remember, they got the guns but we got the numbers.

Thats a really good one, and I agree with you fully. Only problem is, unless we all stand up at once, they just shoot the few that do and the rest get scared.

[bigregory]

Robin Hood
aka.Lockslay
As called by Richard of England- King of Outlaws,and Prince of good fellows!
Diccon Bend-the-Bow As he called himself.
An outlaw that hath a heart..

Could there be nay a better champion to behold!

[JohnnyV]

I'm probably pretty corny but my heroes are:

--Malcolm X. Anybody in the West who could find a liberating ideology in Islam and speak it to the world has true cojones. Also, to be so honest and die for what you believe. Amazing.

--Socrates. Probably not a nice man, but man, to use one's wit in order to shake the very foundations of one's society. Stunning. Also, the whole dying for what you believe, and then refusing to let your friends smuggle you to safety when you know you're condemned to death. Way to go with class.

--Jesus. Incredibly smart. Too bad so few people actually stick to what he says.

--St. Paul of Tarsis. Anyone who can take a small splinter religion and sell it in Rome, until it becomes a worldwide religion, has to win the public relations award of human history. Too bad he wasn't great about the gay issues, but we have to cut him some slack. Those were the times he lived in; homosexuals in his Rome were men who refused to marry women and thereefore left widows and young women with nobody to support them. A different time.

--William Blake. Freaky poetry for a Brit. But he was one of the few Romantics who didn't get caught up in the warrior cult. That's why he outlived all of the others.

--Henry David Thoreau. Okay, so he didn't really spend much time in jail refusing to pay the war tax. But still, a courageous visionary.

--José MartÃ* and José Rizal. One guy in Cuba, the other in the Philippines. The 1890s -- not a great time to be living in one of Spain's colonies. They wrote beautiful things in the midst of carnage and died for what they believed.

Caesar, Hitler, and the guy who figured out the atomic bomb aren't high on my list. I think it's stupid that we put Hitler in this ethereal evil category as if nobody else says the same basic things he said... He was just in power at a time when a lot of people were willing to coordinate their efforts. I've been saying for a while that if the current leadership of Israel could build crematoria to get rid of the Palestinians, they would. Hitler has no monopoly on evil, and the Jews have no monopoly on persecution. But still, there's not much in Hitler that I can say taught the world any lessons. If anything people abuse the history of Hitler as a cover for their own genocides and abuses.

J

[bigregory]

How could i forget Freddy Mercury from Queen.
He is my HERO...

[stuporman]

Marquis de Sade. Sade wasn't really a bad guy, he was just stoopid. It is bad politics indeed to feed an overdose of opium and spanish fly candies to the mayors 14 year old daughter.......but he was also a brilliant writer, and his opus "Philosophy in the Bedroom" was hundreds of years before its time. I mean, the guy was such a king hell pervert that today he would have his picture taken with Ron Jeremy. He also busted the balls of the Church, Religious Women, and other people who needed to have their balls busted in the worst way. His pamphlet, "Yet another effort, Frenchmen, if ye would become republicans", was widely circulated during the 1848 uprisings in paris. Sade had been dead for 46 years. He spent over half his life in jail, but 200 years after his death, his writings are still discussed by people of intelligence. He championed gay rights LONG before it was politically correct. In the movie Quills, in which sade becoems a stone martyr, sade yells "Bugger me!" if the real sade said that to me, I would pull down my pants and go for it.......the guy was such a king hell Wierdo that it would be a privilage. :bowdown:

[etncple]

I would have to agree about Hitler as as a hero lacks a certain credibility (and thats putting it very very mildly). Try reading Mein Kamph and see what he "taught". Hitler's existence only reinforced the what people have known long before he came along and that is "absolute power corrupts absolutely". Since WWII we have had numerous examples of many more "Hitlers", Saddam, Idi Amin, the Khmer Rouge, Stalin, and too many groups to list who believe the wholesale slaughter of people is a viable political act. If anything, the number of hate groups , both here in the US and across the world, has increased more dramatically than at any time in history so I don't see anything we "learned from Hitler or any of these other murderous lunatics.
Since the end of WWII the US has seen the KKK make a comeback with more members now than anytime since the end of the Civil War, white supremist groups grow larger every year. England had the IRA setting bombs off for 20 yrs and as far as the MidEast goes nothing has changed in 3000 yrs, they have been slaughtering each other since before the Crusades and the list goes on and on and on.
As far as a weapons maker goes, man has used every weapon that increases the ability to kill more efficiently since the invention of the spear and the long bow,and he will continue to do so. To think otherwise is just plain stupid.
If you want to find a hero, take a look at the firemen in NY who died on 9/11. Would you you enter a 100 story building burning with aviation fuel to save a stranger, I honesty don't know if I would. Or how about the soldier in Iraq right now who dives on a genade to save his fellow soldiers( and there have been a number of those).
A hero is anyone who risks harm to themselves to help someone else without regard to their own safety, even more so if the person being helped is a stranger. Or how about the person who pays the medical bills or mortage of a financially strapped family and does so WITHOUT announcing it to the world or the people he helped, thats a hero to me.
Heros are just normal, everyday flawed humans who go far beyond what most of us expect to help others.
Of course thats just my opinion and I could be wrong :2cents:




I think I know what you are trying to say here Long Duck, but holding Hitler up as a hero does stretch credibility a bit far here. Also any who create or are involved in the creation of weapons are by definition extremely misguided if they believe that weapon can do any other than be responsible in the hands of others for the deaths of so many millions... occasionally a person whose idea goes wrong or whose invention is used to do wrong can be admired for his intentions, but not when it comes to the creation of weapons of any kind.

[smokey]

I don't believe in personal heroes...there may be people I admire and look up to but I would never call them a hero. AND, they are certainly not politicians or sports figures or anything trite like that.

We way over use the word hero until it runs the risk of losing all meaning. Soldiers are certainly not heroes, though individuals may do heroic things. Soldiers are just doing what they are paid for and have a huge club (The Military Code of Justice) looming over their heads if they don't. Besides that fact, there is nothing noble or heroic about war, any war, even necessary ones.

The word hero should be saved for the truly extraordinary... like the off duty fire fighters who went to the trade centers anyway or souls who do the right thing when it would be so easier to look the other way like the righteous Christians who hid Jews, at great personal risk to themselves, from the NAZI'S.

Generally speaking the word hero should be saved for people who do profound acts of compassion or altruism.

[JohnnyV]

Since the end of WWII the US has seen the KKK make a comeback with more members now than anytime since the end of the Civil War, white supremist groups grow larger every year. England had the IRA setting bombs off for 20 yrs and as far as the MidEast goes nothing has changed in 3000 yrs, they have been slaughtering each other since before the Crusades and the list goes on and on and on.


Just so you don't put all the blame on splinter groups, remember that the American and British "Mainstream" have also been responsible for horrible atrocities, and are currently adding corpses to their shameful body count. The Iraqi death toll is debated, but no respectable assessment places it lower than 60,000 civilians, a few reputable study groups have placed at 650,000, and the reasonable average is somewhere around 350,000 civilians killed by an invasion led by the United States and Great Britain. (Under very doubtful pretexts).

Even more alarmingly, look at the numbers from the Holocaust compared to the numbers of a different group that Americans want to "cleanse" from the US population: illegal immigrants. German law made it illegal for Jews to be German citizens, so they could claim they were following the law when they tried to deport them. There was nowhere to deport them to, and the war was in full swing, so in 1941-2, they came up with the solution of killing them all -- 11 million was their goal, but they ended up killing 6 million Jews.

In the US right now there are 12 million illegal immigrants. Many politicians and demagogues like Lou Dobbs are screaming for walls, detention centers, a bigger secret police, laws to force illegals out of their homes, and of course deportation. This is exactly how the early genocide against the JEws in Europe began and progressed for 20 years. The same hurdles loom in the future: with nowhere to send many of these illegal immigrants, the US will hold them in squalid ghettoized detention centers and then it's only a matter of time before some nefarious genius high in government develops a plan to secretly gas them all.

The parallel isn't perfect but it helps to show you how these atrocities happen. Even people like "us" are capable of such barbarities; you don't have to be a terrorist or a despot.

And to be a hero, I think you need to be able to stand up to injustice, which is why I favor writers and people who speak out, over firemen who do their job. Sometimes it is a much more frightening thing to do, to tell your own society when it is committing evil.

J