Is the Military on the Verge of Crashing?

[the mage]

The U.S. military is in real trouble...
Sad really as the rallying cry is "support the troops"


http://www.mediachannel.org/wordpress/2007/12/06/is-the-military-on-the-verge-of-crashing/

[darkeyes]

Fat chance.. but we can but hope.....:tong:

[TaylorMade]

Fat chance.. but we can but hope.....:tong:

Excuse me? My country may not be perfect, but I'll be damned If I'm gonna let someone wishing harm on our military go.

Fran... sometimes, your nievete' leads you to say the dumbest things and THIS is definitely one of them- - I really wish you'd of thought before typing this- - even in jest, it's the kind of statement that really makes me question any respect I had for you.

Goodnight, Dark.

*Taylor*

[12voltman59]

The damage to our military is yet one more unintended consequence (or maybe it was not so unitended) of this "war"--with the incompetent manner the Bush administration has done just about everything--the military is yet one more example of the failures of this administration and to me---goes to show-the Bush 43 administration is going to rank among the list of failed presidencies and actually wins--hands down--the ranking of the worst presidency in the history of the United States of America!!!!!

The sweeping nature of Bush failures actual lead me to believe that being so bad was his actual goal---Bush came in to the office with the general conservative belief that all government is bad---the only thing it is good for is to enrich your bankaccount or at least let your cronies enrich themselves while gutting any of the good things government does---they have been a great success at this.

The list of government agencies and branches that Bush has damaged runs the gamet from the State Department, The Department of Justice, FEMA and now the Defense Department and more.

Way to Freakin' Go King Chump!!!

[FalconAngel]

I'm with Taylormade on this one.

I am a Veteran of that military and the way I see it, the only ones that want this nation defenseless are it's enemies.

I have seen how the anti-military has treated our troops. In the 60's and 70's they were spit on for serving. The anti-war crowd in the 60's called the troops "baby killers" when they came home from Vietnam.
I served with Sr. NCO's who were young troops in Nam and if those protesters knew what these guys went through over there, they would have shut their yaps.

Our troops are now embroiled in a war that was created by a warmonger and his war-profiteer friends, and those troops are paying the price. They deserve better than someone wishing our military to collapse.

NO free nation remains free without the ability to defend itself.

Those troops are where they are because they wanted to serve their country. There are, currently NO draftees in the US military.
Our country is protected by an ALL VOLUNTEER force, and a free man defending his home is worth a hundred conscripts.

Those troops are following their orders, as they should. There may be some illegal orders floating around, but no soldier in our military has the duty to comply with illegal orders and has the lawful right to not comply with unlawful orders. What other military is like that, outside of the free world?

We may be embroiled in "Vietnam II: desert version", but that doesn't mean that our military service members do not deserve respect. They do. They are doing a job that many, here and elsewhere, would not do even if their own freedoms depended on it.

So while some may want to bash the military, think about this quote:

“I was in an elevator in a Washington hotel, packed with ‘peace activists.’ They looked with disdain at my dress uniform. I queried the most boisterous among them, ‘If you were locked away in some God-forsaken hell hole of a prison in one of the ‘Stans,’ who would you rather have coming to rescue you, buses loaded with peacenik protestors or helicopters loaded with gung-ho Marines?’ The silence was deafening.” —Colonel (USMC), San Diego, California

[Moto1]

I'm with Taylormade on this one.

I am a Veteran of that military and the way I see it, the only ones that want this nation defenseless are it's enemies.

I have seen how the anti-military has treated our troops. In the 60's and 70's they were spit on for serving. The anti-war crowd in the 60's called the troops "baby killers" when they came home from Vietnam.
I served with Sr. NCO's who were young troops in Nam and if those protesters knew what these guys went through over there, they would have shut their yaps.

Well I know what they went through. But still they shouldn't have gone. Although it is not the fault of the troops, the fact is that the war was a stupid anti-democratic action (the Vietnamese wanted free elections, the US said no because they feared a communist party would win) that killed millions (the same number of people were killed by the US army EVERY DAY of the conflict that died in 9/11. Puts it into perspective doesn't it?). The fact that the US troops had a hard time as well does not mean it was not a war that shouldn't have taken place. (Unless you are not saying that it should, in which case I apologize!)

[darkeyes]

Excuse me? My country may not be perfect, but I'll be damned If I'm gonna let someone wishing harm on our military go.

Fran... sometimes, your nievete' leads you to say the dumbest things and THIS is definitely one of them- - I really wish you'd of thought before typing this- - even in jest, it's the kind of statement that really makes me question any respect I had for you.

Goodnight, Dark.

*Taylor*
Up to u Taylor..but me a pacifist...don wish ne harm 2 cum 2 ne human bein friend or foe... an won do owt 2 harm ne..friend or foe..no matta the provocation.. but as an institution..belongin 2 ne country..don give a sod..it can go 2 blazes an disappear up its own arsehole for all me cares...

An if its naivity...s'ok..been accused a worse..an will b gain...jus think ther betta waysa sortin out the worlds problems than killin peeps an ruinin ther lives.. wetha ya respect me or not don change that view... pacifism means beina pacifist..woteva shit happens 2 ya..it don mean beina pacifist until sumthin dus...

Idealism?? Sure..wer an wot wud me b wivout me ideals... jus happens that in time..on this at least if not on many otha things me idealistic bout..it will happen.. me won c it an nor will generations down the line..but dus believe it..an dus wot me can 2 edge towards it..includin fallin out wiv peeps me likes an luffs... well more accurately havin em fall out wiv me...

[*pan*]

my :2cents: to this is, i love my contry but don't trust the government, i support the troops no matter what they are sent to do, they are americans doing their service as told to do by the government, i will never put down the military no matter what situation the government puts them in, they are soldiers doing what their told. as anyone who has ever served knows. never put down an organization for a few bad apples, thats like condemming a race for a few bad people. the military is nessary and needed to a free nation. not their fault if the government makes bad choices or decisions. i hate even the thought of war but from studying history i know there are times when it's nessisary, we owe our freedoms to the force that has beaten opression in the past which is our military. if you ever want to keep talking and saying what you want to on here, you'd better hope our military never crashes. for they are the defenders of the country and the people and our bill of rights which gives us the freedom to say what we think and feel.

[darkeyes]

my :2cents: to this is, i love my contry but don't trust the government, i support the troops no matter what they are sent to do, they are americans doing their service as told to do by the government

Seem 2 memba peeps cryin that at Nuremburg round bout 1946.. support em woteva they told 2 do??? That statement needs 2 b treated wiv contempt it deserves.....

[wolfcamp]

Seem 2 memba peeps cryin that at Nuremburg round bout 1946.. support em woteva they told 2 do??? That statement needs 2 b treated wiv contempt it deserves.....

That was a dictatorship. Ours is a democracy. The Germans had no option to throw out their authoritarian leader, or to even speak against him. We do, and we will. That's the big difference.

[darkeyes]

That was a dictatorship. Ours is a democracy. The Germans had no option to throw out their authoritarian leader, or to even speak against him. We do, and we will. That's the big difference.

No excuse wetha dictatorship or democracy.. the statement still stands an still stinks... an so ya support ya military in ne excursion it makes no matta wot.. ne thin it dus no matta wot?? so long as its decided by a "democratic" government?? Jeez...me despairs of humanity..... "my country right or wrong"... wotta bloody attitude an it excuses nuthin...

[Long Duck Dong]

being ex armed forces, I have walked in the shoes of many soldiers......

when we talk about defending our country.... we are not talking about marching with pride and honor, with the calls of praise in our ears........

hell no....

we are talking about endless sleepless night, stinking clothes, bad feed, extreme stress, battle fatique, dirt, dust, mossies, jammed guns, broken down vehicles, friendly and enemy fire, hunger, thirsty, blood, wounds, pain, suffering.... hell the list goes on

we walk out the door and onto the airplane and boat.... and we become a soldier.... a nameless, faceless soldier.......

and we would like to be known by our name.....not our rank, and service or our medals......when we are over there and when we return......
we would like to have a beer in a bar and not have people call us a hero, a warrior, a respected person........

and thats how I feel about the generals and admirals and presidents and government

don't hand us ya praise and ya speechs.... or ya tv interviews......5 second visits ...etc etc

give us working gear, ample supplies and proof that we will be home by xmas.....cos we have families too and while we are giving our butts shots off......our families miss us and need us.......

so screw ya new airplanes and tanks and boats and guns and all that stuff....

we have been defending out country for you.... now give us xmas with our families

[TaylorMade]

No excuse wetha dictatorship or democracy.. the statement still stands an still stinks... an so ya support ya military in ne excursion it makes no matta wot.. ne thin it dus no matta wot?? so long as its decided by a "democratic" government?? Jeez...me despairs of humanity..... "my country right or wrong"... wotta bloody attitude an it excuses nuthin...

You're equating a dictatorship and a democracy? Live a couple years under each, then you'd know how stupid that statement sounds.

I dated a United States Marine for a good while. I didn't agree with everything his commanders ordered him to do, but I made sure to pack a box with the things he needed (magazines, lip balm, body wash, socks, etc.) so he could have a comfortable existence. . .if this is what you are speaking against, Fran, your idealism is crossing over into denying people based on their occupation.

You're inching close to making me want to say... keep quiet while the grownups have a chat, Fran. . . It's one thing to disagree, but have a coherent viewpoint, PLEASE.

*Taylor*

[slocum5]

Obviously, Pan meant that he supported our troops in what they did within the bounds of the Geneva Convention. If not so stated, I'm sure he would agree.

I wonder how many Brits would support Darkeyes in her implied contention that American troops would march innocent civilians to the gas chamber. Or in the alternative, how many Brits agree that the GI's who were sent to England to stage the Normandy invasion agree with the Brit war time slogan that the American GI in Britain at that time was "Overpaid, over sexed and over here!"

[The Barefoot Contess]

I know I am going to be grilled for this one, so let’s start by saying that I don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings. Also, if you are going to start your rant by saying that because I am foreign I cannot have an opinion, and that if I don’t like America I should not be here to begin with, please know that you are wasting your time. I do like America, otherwise I would not be here. I just think that liking a country does not mean you have to agree with its government’s policies.
The way I look at it is this: yes, people in the military deserve respect, but no more than any other person doing their job as law-abiding people. The mailman might not be risking his life for me every day, but his job is as important if not more than that of the military. In glorifying war “heroes” we are legitimizing and supporting the war. If the government actually gave a shit about the military, they would actually care about vets. Maybe, just maybe, we might be witnessing an attempt to intentionally but quietly discredit the army so that then people will be all about a mercenary, and of course private, army, aka Blackwater.
Second, to say that the military is protecting the interests of Americans is false. The interests they are defending with their lives are those of a few rich and powerful people who benefit from this war, and therefore the longer the war lasts, the better for them. Let’s make no mistake here: the current administration has neither the intention nor the desire to end this war, and if public opinion is strong enough that they end up having to pull out the troops, it will be only to send them somewhere else, aka Iran. Apart from the economic side of the war, which is draining the pockets of ordinary Americans to fill those of a few powerful, there is a great “benefit” to be gained from this and any war: a state of war (fear) makes it easier for people to surrender their liberties and rights (PATRIOT act…), and so, it is much easier for the government to control them.
Third, yes, people in the military do as they are told. Well, so do I in my job, until I am asked to something illegal (which in my case has never happened). The war in Iraq is illegal (remember that it was not Iraq that attacked the US?), and the treatment of war prisoners (oh, sorry, military combatants) violates the Geneva Convention. People in the military know that. So, in my eyes, saying “I do as I am told” is not an excuse. There comes a point when you need to do the right thing, and decide that you will not be responsible for the deaths of innocents that have nothing to do with the security of your country. If doing so means that you cannot be in the military, then, in my opinion, so be it. Now the problem is, of course, that the war has created such a mess in Iraq, that no “solution” (staying, withdrawing immediately) is a good one anymore.
Fourth, we should not confuse patriotism with acceptance. Criticizing the war, or the role of the army in it, is not the same as criticizing America. And being a patriot, no matter what country we are talking about, means having the guts to criticize it when it deserves it. As Henry David Thoreau put it, “dissent is the highest form of patriotism”.
Fifth, I wish no one any harm, but if you are invading a country, then don’t expect a red carpet to greet you. The reason why people in Iraq are not more supportive of the American troops is that those troops are really not attempting to promote a free democracy, but a satellite state that will bow to the wishes of the current administration. This is not the first time this has happened, just look at America’s record in Latin America.

[darkeyes]

Obviously, Pan meant that he supported our troops in what they did within the bounds of the Geneva Convention. If not so stated, I'm sure he would agree.

I wonder how many Brits would support Darkeyes in her implied contention that American troops would march innocent civilians to the gas chamber. Or in the alternative, how many Brits agree that the GI's who were sent to England to stage the Normandy invasion agree with the Brit war time slogan that the American GI in Britain at that time was "Overpaid, over sexed and over here!"

First off..me did not make that contention implied or othawise... me contention is that as a pacifist me cannot an neva shall support the military or ne miltary action. Human beins r meant 2 b intelligent...sadly 2 often they don haff fall dwn on that, but me still believes its not beyond the wit of humankind 2 resolve differences wivout havin a bloody war.

Me did make the implied contention that the military of ne country can an do act in a barbarous manner at the direction of their Governments. The military of my country is not exempt from this. I will make the contention, that the military of ne nation, under the direction of ne government will "obey orders" an carry out barbarous acts, if need be by filin peeps onta trains an an sendin em off 2 bein gassed. In theory..the government of Serbia was democratically elected government an we know wot happened ther.. so don gimme the democracy bollox ther...democray or totalitarian, the military will do jus wot its political masters wannit 2 do, an sumtimes it will not b in accord wivya beloved Geneva Convention.

The military of the UK under government direction invented concentration camps durin the Boer war and thousands of men, women and children wer starved to death because of government dictat an blind military obedience. Britain also by civilian authority gas bomb thousands of Iraqi civilians in Iraq long before Saddam was a twinkle in is dads eye. Agent Orange in Indo-China is an appallin condemnation of the US military an wos dun unda explicit authority of the US ELECTED authorities. The military of no nation, democratic or otherwise is or can be excused for any act of brutality wich occurs wetha unda instruction from government or its own hierarchy. In the end it is the civilian masters who shud hav had sufficent control over ther military 2 prevent ne barbarism bein dun in the name of the country wich they serve. Failure 2 do so makes them culpable. Ne orders wich allow barbarism wich comes from a government democratic or othawise r a scandal, an the blind obedience of the military no excuse for a plea of ther innocence.

Governments, democratic and totalitarian, hav always used the military 2 crush brutally ne opposition outside of the Geneva Convention, wich in fact has so many loopholes, deliberately 2 allow many acts of brutality 2 continue 2 b perpetrated in particular by the major military powers.

Me dus not, an neva has singled out the military of the USA for special attention..me loathin is for all things military, no matta from wence they come. On occasion me mite criticise the US military for specific acts but equally will the military of the UK... more so ere because they hav the affrontery 2 tell me its dun in my name.. France happpens 2 b me fave country on the planet outsida me own. The war crimes of France since 1945 site up 2 the present time r summat wich the French themselves repeatedly turn a blind eye 2, from Indo-China 2 Algeria an Chad, an weneva me been ova ther hav actively participated in protests about such acts. The Belgians an Dutch similarly wer they wer the colonial powers, and the armed forces of Spain have a lot 2 ansa for. All acts dun at the behest of ther respective ELECTED governments, not by ther military wivout prior knowledge of the elected authorities.

Me don give a toss bout the Geneva Convention.. it is a legal justification 2 excuse many acts wich r quite simply appallin...wot me cares bout is the rite of peeps the world ova 2 live wivout fear of war... thats wy me a pacist.. me hates ALL military.. ALL violence.. an ALL acts wich harm otha human beins or prevent them from livin in peace an gettin on wiv ther lives...

An fore ne 1 says it..yea..me loathes an detests ne act of terror wich harms ne human bein ... but can undastand the frustration wich many peeps the world ova suffa wich makes em turn 2 it as a weapon 2 achive ther end.. dus NOT agree wiv it in ne way, an loathes it as jus anotha way of stirrin shite an tryin 2 bully peeps inta submission. Jus don think by havin wars, we eitha remove the terrorists or make ne inroads inta solvin the root cause. In end that can only b done adequately by negotiation an satisfyin the desires of those who feel dispossessed or oppressed, or by eliminatin the mistrust an hatred between the militarily armed predominantly western nations an the freedom fighters/terror groups, call em wotya will, an tryin sumhow 2 eliminate the mistrust tween the peeps of the various religions involved....

An Taylor hun...wetha ya likes it or not arguin for a world wivout war, an the settlement of disputes wivout the need for conflict like GROWN UPS is perfectly coherent. Mayb not easy 2 achieve me knows that only 2 well... but so long as the peeps in nations the world ova do not believe it, it will neva b..thankfully ther r more than jus me who believes it possible an given time am sure we will achieve the elimination of armed conflict. Know that we r relatively few, but that don make us rong...

An since ya raised the prevention of occupation for the military an ya luffly marines..wot ya think is the mos inneficient us a resources for creatin employment??? Gorrit it in1..military spendin... how much betta ya think the US economy wud b if the hundreds of billionsa dollars spent on arms an the military wer spent on creatin more socially acceptable jobs.. Do accept that high military spendin don haff move on technology..but for chrissakes..look at the cost 2 humanity??? By spendin properly, an changin priorites, we cud do that an develop technologies wich wud both create jobs an help peeps a lot more than spendin on the military eva will..but ya havta hav the will to do it... ya havta believe it can b dun.. an Taylor hun..if me didn believe it me wudn say it... ya marines, ya sailors an allya otha military personnel wud b employed in an doin jobs wich benefitted mankind..not help keep it livin n fear of destruction... wetha ya like it or not that is an ideal, it is coherent, and it is GROWN UP!!!! Jus cos ya don agree wiv it don make it ne the less valid..

Aint me that aint grown up... children settle disputes by conflict an we tell em ther r betta ways...then we let em grow up an tell em "fuk wotya learned... here a gun..go kill that arab/black/russki/jew/proddie/ woteva cross the ocean...". If thats grown up me will gladly stay a child.....

[darkeyes]

Contessa babes.. ya jus a lil smartie knickers an me luffs ya!! :tong:

[TaylorMade]

An Taylor hun...wetha ya likes it or not arguin for a world wivout war, an the settlement of disputes wivout the need for conflict like GROWN UPS is perfectly coherent. Mayb not easy 2 achieve me knows that only 2 well... but so long as the peeps in nations the world ova do not believe it, it will neva b..thankfully ther r more than jus me who believes it possible an given time am sure we will achieve the elimination of armed conflict. Know that we r relatively few, but that don make us rong...

An since ya raised the prevention of occupation for the military an ya luffly marines..wot ya think is the mos inneficient us a resources for creatin employment??? Gorrit it in1..military spendin... how much betta ya think the US economy wud b if the hundreds of billionsa dollars spent on arms an the military wer spent on creatin more socially acceptable jobs.. Do accept that high military spendin don haff move on technology..but for chrissakes..look at the cost 2 humanity??? By spendin properly, an changin priorites, we cud do that an develop technologies wich wud both create jobs an help peeps a lot more than spendin on the military eva will..but ya havta hav the will to do it... ya havta believe it can b dun.. an Taylor hun..if me didn believe it me wudn say it... ya marines, ya sailors an allya otha military personnel wud b employed in an doin jobs wich benefitted mankind..not help keep it livin n fear of destruction... wetha ya like it or not that is an ideal, it is coherent, and it is GROWN UP!!!! Jus cos ya don agree wiv it don make it ne the less valid..

Aint me that aint grown up... children settle disputes by conflict an we tell em ther r betta ways...then we let em grow up an tell em "fuk wotya learned... here a gun..go kill that arab/black/russki/jew/proddie/ woteva cross the ocean...". If thats grown up me will gladly stay a child.....

Like I said, Darkeyes... the little you know about the world becomes apparent the more you talk about it.

Goodnight.

*Taylor*

[wolfcamp]

I think war is in our genes. It goes back beyond the split from our last common ancestor, more than 6 million years. It's a survival technique for communities, and it protects our territory and resources from competing communities. So, I don't think there is a way to get away from it. It's natural selection on a community level.

So, with that said, I think the US military is one of our country's greatest strengths. They are disciplined and do exactly as they are commanded. If a military did as they wished, or as they thought they should, then we would have a situation like they have in Pakistan or Darfur. Look at the military of Iraq which has no loyalty and is split into warring factions. Each division acts according to it's alignment with it's faith of choice. Each soldier chooses his loyalty based on his own sense of ethics and values. This does nobody any good, and that country is basically in chaos. Nobody wants the US military going around doing whatever it wants, or whatever it "thinks it should".

As I said before, it's the civilian leaders that command the military, and it's those leaders who should be held accountable. Don't blame the military, blame the leaders. We have the option to change leaders if we don't like the way they are running things. I don't see a better system out there.

[azirish]

Fat chance.. but we can but hope.....:tong:

You live in the UK and can can't even see the Islamist attempting to taking over the UK? Do you know what they do to Lesbians under Sharia Law? I will never not respond to anyone taking shots at our (US) of the armed services of any country. They are much braver men and women then me (I'm very willing to admit that), they are the only thing stopping you from a bruqa or a public hanging. You ignorant stupid fool. Don't count on the military you so dislike from stopping the constant tream of militants more than willing to seperate you're head from you're neck. One more thing..learn to use spell check at least before typing something soo stupid.

Sorry to vent, this only applies to this poster.

[azirish]

my :2cents: to this is, i love my contry but don't trust the government, i support the troops no matter what they are sent to do, they are americans doing their service as told to do by the government, i will never put down the military no matter what situation the government puts them in, they are soldiers doing what their told. as anyone who has ever served knows. never put down an organization for a few bad apples, thats like condemming a race for a few bad people. the military is nessary and needed to a free nation. not their fault if the government makes bad choices or decisions. i hate even the thought of war but from studying history i know there are times when it's nessisary, we owe our freedoms to the force that has beaten opression in the past which is our military. if you ever want to keep talking and saying what you want to on here, you'd better hope our military never crashes. for they are the defenders of the country and the people and our bill of rights which gives us the freedom to say what we think and feel.

How can you suport the troops but not the mission? Thats like not supporting the message but I supporting the messenger(s). (Can you eat but not swallow?)If you don't support the mission you don't support our troops.

[FalconAngel]

Barefoot, darling, you have one flaw with the first part of your point.

While the job of mailman is very important, comparing them to what a soldier has to do is doing an extreme injustice to what a soldier is trained to do.

The job of soldier consists of going out into areas where few others would go.

The job of soldier has a probability of dieing (anywhere from 20% to 90%).

Realistically speaking, a postal employee is not likely to go to work and have to worry about the 75% likelihood of running into an IED or sniper or ambush.
A soldier at war, doing his/her job does.

We have our freedom of speech, not because of the speech writer, but because of the soldier.

Soldiers have always been the ones to give all or some in defense of freedom for the free world.

Every free nation is free because soldiers are on guard to protect that freedom and irregardless of the rightness or wrongness of this idiotic war in Iraq, the job of Soldier is to protect free people.

The job of Soldier encompasses not just the soldier and Marine, it includes Sailors and Airmen who keep the seas and skies safe.

The job of postal employee is to safeguard the day's mail for the area they work, it does not compare to safeguarding a nation.

And, as I said before, the job of mail carrier is important, but it does not compare to the job of Soldier either in risk or in responsibility.

For those that still do not quite understand, here's something to make things clearer.


The embers glowed softly, and in their dim light,

I gazed round the room and I cherished the sight.

My wife was asleep, her head on my chest,

My daughter beside me, angelic in rest.

Outside the snow fell, a blanket of white,

Transforming the yard to a winter delight.

The sparkling lights in the tree I believe,

Completed the magic that was Christmas Eve.

My eyelids were heavy, my breathing was deep,

Secure and surrounded by love I would sleep.

In perfect contentment, or so it would seem,

So I slumbered, perhaps I started to dream.


The sound wasn't loud, and it wasn't too near,

But I opened my eyes when it tickled my ear.

Perhaps just a cough, I didn't quite know, Then the

sure sound of footsteps outside in the snow.

My soul gave a tremble, I struggled to hear,

And I crept to the door just to see who was near.

Standing out in the cold and the dark of the night,

A lone figure stood, his face weary and tight.


A soldier, I puzzled, some twenty years old,

Perhaps a Marine, huddled here in the cold.

Alone in the dark, he looked up and smiled,

Standing watch over me, and my wife and my child.

"What are you doing?"I asked without fear,

"Come in this moment, it's freezing out here!

Put down your pack, brush the snow from your sleeve,

You should be at home on a cold Christmas Eve!"

For barely a moment I saw his eyes shift,

Away from the cold and the snow blown in drifts..

To the window that danced with a warm fire's light

Then he sighed and he said "Its really all right,

I'm out here by choice. I'm here every night."

"It's my duty to stand at the front of the line,

That separates you from the darkest of times.

No one had to ask or beg or implore me,

I'm proud to stand here like my fathers before me.

My Gramps died at 'Pearl on a day in December,"

Then he sighed, "That's a Christmas 'Gram always remembers."

My dad stood his watch in the jungles of 'Nam',

And now it is my turn and so, here I am.

I've not seen my own son in more than a while,

But my wife sends me pictures, he's sure got her smile.

Then he bent and he carefully pulled from his bag,

The red, white, and blue... an American flag.

I can live through the cold and the being alone,

Away from my family, my house and my home.

I can stand at my post through the rain and the sleet,

I can sleep in a foxhole with little to eat.

I can carry the weight of killing another,

Or lay down my life with my sister and brother..

Who stand at the front against any and all,

To ensure for all time that this flag will not fall."

"So go back inside," he said, "harbor no fright,

Your family is waiting and I'll be all right."

"But isn't there something I can do, at the least,

"Give you money," I asked, "or prepare you a feast?

It seems all too little for all that you've done,

For being away from your wife and your son."

Then his eye welled a tear that held no regret,

"Just tell us you love us, and never forget.

To fight for our rights back at home while we're gone,

To stand your own watch, no matter how long.

For when we come home, either standing or dead,

To know you remember we fought and we bled.

Is payment enough, and with that we will trust,

That we mattered to you as you mattered to us."


"We, and all others who believe in freedom as deeply as we do, would rather die on our feet than live on our knees." -- Franklin Delano Roosevelt

"In the long history of the world, only a few generations have been granted the role of defending freedom in its hour of maximum danger. I do not shrink from this responsibility--I welcome it." -- John Fitzgerald Kennedy

[liquidcandycain]

woooooow
after reading darkeyes and barefoot's reply's lol im not shure if that job at piggly wiggly looks all that bad lmao hell im setting here still im uniform and to be specific when we "uphold a war hero" its normally done for what he did to save his fellow comrads ass's henc most moh holders arent alive but anywho
several of ya have very argumentive but valid points to be honest i dot have a issue whit definding some assholes right to call me a babykiller and yet fuck 6 crack heads in one night and wonder why they got knocked up yet to still get a abortion and tag it on the curtail of its a womans choice thats unfortionalty thats one of the things i get paid for were not all bad as the people who exsperianced katrina found out

but moreover there is an issue in the ranks as we get ready to head over to afgani we are having a very very serious issue with having enough people to get the job done and the new guys that are here are about as trustworth and dependable and a free tax return from the gov drugs rape sposeabouse crime in general is rampant in the military and due to the shortage we cant "weedout" the one we dont want ive been here for 9 years and after all the time in forgine lands time spent in the field countless failed relationships loss of friends and family not to mention scocial life i dunno why i still do it epessially as i come up on my indefinate retention date meaning i will be forced to stay in untile i retire there is a issue with the military part on the soldiers and part on the gov hell everyone hates us we stick our noses where allot of times it dont belong but theres 2 sides to every coin we have build countless schools pipelines hospitals ect to nations that didnt have such before iraq seems to be the huge issue been there done that left friends there to not return what did the people ask for when the towers fell revenge kill them kill them all and (not defending bush but put yourself in his shoes) what did we get just what was asked at the price of ours sons and daughters now the heat has cooled and a situation has been made and were left holding the bag do i want to go to afghan fuck no iraq only for the cheap gold but im told to go so we go

to the point the military is heading to a breaking point sooner than most think vacant ranks piss poor pay fucked up supply system way to much beauricratic bs and tired weary soldiers divorces are up and so is suicide just get on the net and look up 101st statistics but we will trudge on and when the smoke settles we will get back on the plaine come home and in 10 months do it all over again the train is running out of steam i see it the upper ranks see it and apparently the gov sees it but we are all exsendable and will be replaced as needed or if we do pull out there will be a huge over staffing and people like me will be forced out to cut the numbers and that will just lead to more and more riasing unemployment numbers injured vets ect we have seen it before and will see it again

i do thank everyone who voices there opinion good and bad thats why we have free speach thank you for all who have supported us

no one loves a soldier till the enemy is at the front gate

[The Barefoot Contess]

Every free nation is free because soldiers are on guard to protect that freedom and irregardless of the rightness or wrongness of this idiotic war in Iraq, the job of Soldier is to protect free people.



Agreed. But I think we need to ask ourselves whether or not this was was necessary / legitimate. I mean, Iraq did not attack the US. What are protecting ourselves from, then, if we were not attacked?

[liquidcandycain]

true very true i honestly belive that had something to do with a family debt and was validated byt the war on terrisum (woow i need to get a spellcheck) hey i didnt say i agreed just do whay im told lol

[FalconAngel]

Agreed. But I think we need to ask ourselves whether or not this was was necessary / legitimate. I mean, Iraq did not attack the US. What are protecting ourselves from, then, if we were not attacked?

I do not think that the war in Iraq was legitimate.

Warmongers jumped on the bandwagon of the "war on terror", so when emperor Bush said that Iraq had WMD's, which many knew to be false, but they were gullible because all the words were right and we were still on the ravenous thirst for revenge against terrorists and those who support them.

Now we are embroiled in a civil war. Sounds a lot like Vietnam to me.

But not one of those cowardly politicians were screaming for action when the Red Army Faction blew up that club in Berlin in the early 80's. Where were they then? Where were they when the explosion over Locherbie happened and all of those innocent people were killed?

Getting high, raking in profits at their law firms or making sure that they could get reelected in the next election.
Good men and women died; Americans died from terrorism. But no one lifted a finger since it happened in a foreign land. Not even the American people did anything. After all, it was "just military personnel and their families" that died.

They didn't care that it was Americans that died.

They had their pensions and golden parachutes to worry about.

But I digress. The point is that when we should have taken action, we didn't and instead we waited and took the wrong action because we let our politicians run us instead of us running the politicians.

They listen to the self-proclaimed experts that will tell them what they want to hear rather than what the need to hear. And they make sure that they make the decision which is better for them rather than what is best for the country.

[DiamondDog]

I think war is in our genes. It goes back beyond the split from our last common ancestor, more than 6 million years. It's a survival technique for communities, and it protects our territory and resources from competing communities. So, I don't think there is a way to get away from it. It's natural selection on a community level.

Very well said.

War/combat/etc. has always and will always be around, and it's part of the human existence since day one, and will continue to be part of it long into the future.

It has always been around, so it's not very sane to believe otherwise.

In the long run such a stance about pacifism will mean evolutionary failure.

Pacifism has only been created in the last few centuries and the idea of being "anti-war" is like being "anti-weather" when it all comes down to it.

I believe one can be against CERTAIN wars, as a legitimate political tactic, but that's not the same by a long shot.

I find that the antiwar left is amazingly good at being pro-war when it suits them.

[wolfcamp]

You ignorant stupid fool.

....

One more thing..learn to use spell check at least before typing something soo stupid.

Sorry to vent, this only applies to this poster.

Hey, c'mon man. Everyone's entitled to an opinion. We don't need to resort to name calling.

[TaylorMade]

Very well said.

War/combat/etc. has always and will always be around, and it's part of the human existence since day one, and will continue to be part of it long into the future.

It has always been around, so it's not very sane to believe otherwise.

In the long run such a stance about pacifism will mean evolutionary failure.

Pacifism has only been created in the last few centuries and the idea of being "anti-war" is like being "anti-weather" when it all comes down to it.

I believe one can be against CERTAIN wars, as a legitimate political tactic, but that's not the same by a long shot.

I find that the antiwar left is amazingly good at being pro-war when it suits them.

You know I don't always agree with you, DD. . .but that's exactly what I was trying to say but couldn't quite articulate.

*Taylor*

[wanderingrichard]

i actually served thru that and past it, continuing on thru the reconstruction in the 80's and ending post desert storm.. it wasn't a pretty sight, not a good time had by all i can assure you. we were short money, clothing, guns, tires, nuts bolts, paper, light bulbs, you name it. we had race riots on Fiori Kaserne in Aschaffenburg. assaults on senior enlisted by gangs of drug crazed, or drunken or just plain criminal lower enlisted... the list was endless, and it was a reflection of just how broken and hollow not only the military but our nation and society as a whole were.

reading this article, it hit me that it rings so true again.. had been thinking much the same the past few days as i watch the troops at fort lewis washington come back from iraq again.. many have been there , done that at least twice. some as many as three times.

see, i work hand in hand with these kids every day. sure , i get paid by a contractor to do what i do, hand the soldiers the best piece of equipment our tax dollars can possibly buy, but, they are the reason i do this, not loyalty to my employer[ gosh,what a pair of novel ideas; loyalty to an employer and a career of altruism. how did we as a nation ever lose those ideals??]

looking at the wrecks of gear that these guys bring back [ i include both men and women in the term "guys"] some of it barely functioning, makes me angry some times. angry because i know they might could have fixed this thing themselves in theatre if someone had been able to get them a certain widget sooner, and also angry because i know for a fact that some of this sorry state of repair is just plain ass neglect.

then, too, i have to remind myself that i let things slip during my time in the nefud and southern iraqi deserts too because i had so much basic soldiering and small unit leadership tasks to do that i just didn't have the time to spend working on my rolling stock other than to make sure it was GTO'd [ gas, tires and oiled!] about once a week. see, when people are all around you shooting at you, you have to pull out all the stops.. the cooks, clerks mechanics, everyone picks up and goes into the fight. everyone pulls guard duty , sometimes double shifts and then goes and does their own job, to insure the safety of those americans [ canadians, indians, spainards, etc...] around them. everyone picks up the pieces of the broken duty rosters, because the guys who are supposed to be doing this stuff, they are out in the middle of some town they probably cant' even spell, doing their real mission.

the smarter ones, ?? the ones who see the light at the end of the tunnel and know it might not be what they thought it was when they raised their hands?? they get out.. go on to become leaders in industry, medicine, bankers, lawyers, the postman, etc.. they put it behind them best they can and move on with their lives. it's always the same, no matter if we're talking the roman empire, the end of WW I , WW II, Vietnam, or even now.. so this " brain drain" this loss of junior leadership, the institutional fear that there will be no one there to hand over the flag to at the end of an old timers turn at the wheel, it's all been done before and will be done again until mankind figures out a way to stop wars completely.

sorry to have prattled.. basically, it's all been done before. the hard earned lessons from many previous trips down this rocky road are still there for those who are willing to step aside from the norms of the day and actually look for them, draw on them and put them into action.... hey! there's another old ideal that we need to pick back up.. actually doing something to fix this instead of sitting on the sidelines being political guttersnipes...
Rich

[wanderingrichard]

The damage to our military is yet one more unintended consequence (or maybe it was not so unitended) of this "war"--with the incompetent manner the Bush administration has done just about everything--the military is yet one more example of the failures of this administration and to me---goes to show-the Bush 43 administration is going to rank among the list of failed presidencies and actually wins--hands down--the ranking of the worst presidency in the history of the United States of America!!!!!

The sweeping nature of Bush failures actual lead me to believe that being so bad was his actual goal---Bush came in to the office with the general conservative belief that all government is bad---the only thing it is good for is to enrich your bankaccount or at least let your cronies enrich themselves while gutting any of the good things government does---they have been a great success at this.

The list of government agencies and branches that Bush has damaged runs the gamet from the State Department, The Department of Justice, FEMA and now the Defense Department and more.

Way to Freakin' Go King Chump!!!

Volty, please submit objective proof of your allegations, you have my email addy..
Rich

[wanderingrichard]

That was a dictatorship. Ours is a democracy. The Germans had no option to throw out their authoritarian leader, or to even speak against him. We do, and we will. That's the big difference.

as we so demonstrated in our revolt against another george.. that one of england....

[oralplus]

All is very well. Nobody like troups of any nation to be at harm. But the point here is... When the Comander in Chief is totaly inept and as he has showen many times a idiot ....Sorry but the troups have not got a chance. Get them out of there pleaseeeeeeee:(

[FalconAngel]

there's another old ideal that we need to pick back up.. actually doing something to fix this instead of sitting on the sidelines being political guttersnipes...
Rich

Well said, all the way through, Brother.

Half of what I learned about Nam was from the news and the rest from the Sr NCO's that I had while I was in. The only thing about war that changes is the location and the people fighting it.

I believe in our nation and our military. It doesn't mean that I believe in our leadership; Even the valid wars had bad things done by both sides in order to win.

Putting them down isn't right. And if you live here and don't like the military, just yell it out at a bike run and see how long it takes the cops to break through the crowd pummeling you. There are a lot of us who raised our right hand. Not because we thought we were going to fight for a "just War", but because it was the right thing to do and to give something back to the country that gave us the freedom that we grew up with.

For those of you who have not served, here's the oath that we take:

I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

So help me God

This is the same oath no matter if you are a Soldier, Sailor, Airman or Marine.

So very much said with so very few words.

[12voltman59]

There are a whole host of reasons that I think Bush is a lousy president-but I will let this draft of a list of Articles of Impeachment of Bush and Cheney being prepared in different quarters serve as a good starting place: (this list comes from the following site: http://www.impeachbush.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5054&news_iv_ctrl=1061)

Articles of Impeachment

of

President George W. Bush

and

Vice President Richard B. Cheney,
Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice,
Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld, and
Attorney General Alberto Gonzales

The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors. - - ARTICLE II, SECTION 4 OF THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

President George W. Bush, Vice President Richard B. Cheney, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld, and Attorney General Alberto Gonzales have committed violations and subversions of the Constitution of the United States of America in an attempt to carry out with impunity crimes against peace and humanity and war crimes and deprivations of the civil rights of the people of the United States and other nations, by assuming powers of an imperial executive unaccountable to law and usurping powers of the Congress, the Judiciary and those reserved to the people of the United States, by the following acts:

1) Seizing power to wage wars of aggression in defiance of the U.S. Constitution, the U.N. Charter and the rule of law; carrying out a massive assault on and occupation of Iraq, a country that was not threatening the United States, resulting in the death and maiming of over one hundred thousand Iraqis, and thousands of U.S. G.I.s.

2) Lying to the people of the U.S., to Congress, and to the U.N., providing false and deceptive rationales for war.

3) Authorizing, ordering and condoning direct attacks on civilians, civilian facilities and locations where civilian casualties were unavoidable.

4) Instituting a secret and illegal wiretapping and spying operation against the people of the United States through the National Security Agency.

5) Threatening the independence and sovereignty of Iraq by belligerently changing its government by force and assaulting Iraq in a war of aggression.

6) Authorizing, ordering and condoning assassinations, summary executions, kidnappings, secret and other illegal detentions of individuals, torture and physical and psychological coercion of prisoners to obtain false statements concerning acts and intentions of governments and individuals and violating within the United States, and by authorizing U.S. forces and agents elsewhere, the rights of individuals under the First, Fourth, Fifth, Sixth and Eighth Amendments to the Constitution of the United States, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.

7) Making, ordering and condoning false statements and propaganda about the conduct of foreign governments and individuals and acts by U.S. government personnel; manipulating the media and foreign governments with false information; concealing information vital to public discussion and informed judgment concerning acts, intentions and possession, or efforts to obtain weapons of mass destruction in order to falsely create a climate of fear and destroy opposition to U.S. wars of aggression and first strike attacks.

8) Violations and subversions of the Charter of the United Nations and international law, both a part of the "Supreme Law of the land" under Article VI, paragraph 2, of the Constitution, in an attempt to commit with impunity crimes against peace and humanity and war crimes in wars and threats of aggression against Afghanistan, Iraq and others and usurping powers of the United Nations and the peoples of its nations by bribery, coercion and other corrupt acts and by rejecting treaties, committing treaty violations, and frustrating compliance with treaties in order to destroy any means by which international law and institutions can prevent, affect, or adjudicate the exercise of U.S. military and economic power against the international community.

9) Acting to strip United States citizens of their constitutional and human rights, ordering indefinite detention of citizens, without access to counsel, without charge, and without opportunity to appear before a civil judicial officer to challenge the detention, based solely on the discretionary designation by the Executive of a citizen as an "enemy combatant."

10) Ordering indefinite detention of non-citizens in the United States and elsewhere, and without charge, at the discretionary designation of the Attorney General or the Secretary of Defense.

11) Ordering and authorizing the Attorney General to override judicial orders of release of detainees under INS jurisdiction, even where the judicial officer after full hearing determines a detainee is wrongfully held by the government.

12) Authorizing secret military tribunals and summary execution of persons who are not citizens who are designated solely at the discretion of the Executive who acts as indicting official, prosecutor and as the only avenue of appellate relief.

13) Refusing to provide public disclosure of the identities and locations of persons who have been arrested, detained and imprisoned by the U.S. government in the United States, including in response to Congressional inquiry.

14) Use of secret arrests of persons within the United States and elsewhere and denial of the right to public trials.

15) Authorizing the monitoring of confidential attorney-client privileged communications by the government, even in the absence of a court order and even where an incarcerated person has not been charged with a crime.

16) Ordering and authorizing the seizure of assets of persons in the United States, prior to hearing or trial, for lawful or innocent association with any entity that at the discretionary designation of the Executive has been deemed "terrorist."

17) Engaging in criminal neglect in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, depriving thousands of people in Louisiana, Mississippi and other Gulf States of urgently needed support, causing mass suffering and unnecessary loss of life.

18) Institutionalization of racial and religious profiling and authorization of domestic spying by federal law enforcement on persons based on their engagement in noncriminal religious and political activity.

19) Refusal to provide information and records necessary and appropriate for the constitutional right of legislative oversight of executive functions.

20) Rejecting treaties protective of peace and human rights and abrogation of the obligations of the United States under, and withdrawal from, international treaties and obligations without consent of the legislative branch, and including termination of the ABM treaty between the United States and Russia, and rescission of the authorizing signature from the Treaty of Rome which served as the basis for the International Criminal Court.

And then there is the incompetence of people Bush put in to run the different agencies like "Brownie" who hosed up the handling of Hurricane Katrina--the firing of the US attornies at the Dept of Justice, "outing" of a CIA operative for purely political purposes---just among a few things-- all a hell of a lot more serious stuff than Clinton getting his woody sucked by an intern!!!!!

[darkeyes]

You live in the UK and can can't even see the Islamist attempting to taking over the UK? Do you know what they do to Lesbians under Sharia Law? I will never not respond to anyone taking shots at our (US) of the armed services of any country. They are much braver men and women then me (I'm very willing to admit that), they are the only thing stopping you from a bruqa or a public hanging. You ignorant stupid fool. Don't count on the military you so dislike from stopping the constant tream of militants more than willing to seperate you're head from you're neck. One more thing..learn to use spell check at least before typing something soo stupid.

Sorry to vent, this only applies to this poster.
Am many things...but am not ignorant, foolish an certainly no 1's fool.. ya think me don kno how much shit goes on? How much intolerance an hatred an the viscious circle of violence??? Fuk me... peeps been killin otha peeps for all sorts reasons for millenia an still they hav learned sod all.. an fuk the spell check... sum things r way 2 important 2 worry bout petty bollox.. but obviously not in ur mind...

[darkeyes]

Like I said, Darkeyes... the little you know about the world becomes apparent the more you talk about it.

Goodnight.

*Taylor*

An Taylor me don know the world as well as me wud wish 2...no 1 eva can... but knows enuff 2 c that things havta change cos the old "solutions" r havin no effect woteva an least makes me think an try an find out wetha ther r otha ways..an question wy things r as they r...... ridicule me allya like...still don make me rong....

[IanBorthwick]

One thing I pray, that our people come home soon. This war is illegal and crazy to think it was any kind of stab at improving lives for people half way round this globe. Our people in the military will ALWAYS have our backing, but the government that put them there does not. If something doesn't happen soon in Congress I don't see them coming home before we ruin so many lives we'll never be respected as a nation again.

And Dark, I agree with you. The rationale for continuing to fight for the sake of fighting, or even saying it's in our genetic code is like giving in for the sake of simplicity. And likening pacifism unto being anti-weather is an improper simile. Weather is an act of nature we cannot commute or change. On the other hand we can alter what WE do because unlike the weather which has no will of its own and animals which run on instinct and survival mode through killing, we have reasoning and intellect. The arguments against being peaceful are for the ones who do not dream, and those who do not see spreading peace AS as survival method. Instead they give in to the lust to kill, strike back, attack, free themselves from thought....sigh.

Free yourself from thought. Run on instinct, strike back...sounds like less than children to me. In fact it sounds like two rabid dogs fighting over a piece of meat.

Well unlike the naysayers, I know we're smart enough to overcome our baser instincts, but the first step is to overcome the negative social stigma placed on those who want people to try and spread peace rather than demand peace on their terms over the barrel of a rifle. Call it what you like to make yourself feel better about it, but it's called taking the easy path because CHANGE is hard.

[GreenEyedLady(GEL)]

How can you suport the troops but not the mission? Thats like not supporting the message but I supporting the messenger(s). (Can you eat but not swallow?)If you don't support the mission you don't support our troops.

Did you see broadcast when Katie Couric, or Anderson Cooper , just to name a couple who went to Iraq and talked to the troops stationed there ? Much of them do not support the mission either. Not saying that they all don't support the mission but many don't. The mission itself is failing. Until the Iraq government takes a hold our their country, allied troops will continue to lose their lives. I have had friends there, and my nefew is likely to go there, all feeling that because they are in the armed forces, they are basically signing their own death note. I support my troops, I support my nefew, I support the men and women in the Dept of Corrections in Michigan who are still in the reserves and get pulled to Iraq and Afganistan to fight for those countrys who are constantly under the threat of terrorist. They are prideful men and women, but they are not dumb.

[CuddlyKate]

You live in the UK and can can't even see the Islamist attempting to taking over the UK? Do you know what they do to Lesbians under Sharia Law? I will never not respond to anyone taking shots at our (US) of the armed services of any country. They are much braver men and women then me (I'm very willing to admit that), they are the only thing stopping you from a bruqa or a public hanging. You ignorant stupid fool. Don't count on the military you so dislike from stopping the constant tream of militants more than willing to seperate you're head from you're neck. One more thing..learn to use spell check at least before typing something soo stupid.

Sorry to vent, this only applies to this poster.
I am unable to allow this rather childish outburst to pass without comment. There is no attempt by "Islamists" to take over the UK lets get that straight here and now. From your nice cosy position in the US possibly you can see better than we, but the reality is far different from your claim. There is much dissatisfaction and disillusion among many Islamic people in this country, as there is among those of other faiths. There is also much disillusion among the youth of native Britons. Disillusion does not mean necessarily revolution or sedition. There are many moslems who try to persuade non moslems of the rightness of their faith. There are many who preach that the Islamic way is how we should all live. Equally there are people of many other religions who make their own claim for our support and for our country to be as they would wish it to be. That is the way of the world. Each of us has our beliefs, and each of us in our own way try to see that our beliefs reach a wider audience and hopefully win converts. Moslems are no different from anyone else in this. Darkeyes is no different from anyone else in this either.

The rather hysterical outburst by Azirish shows no understanding of this country or of the realities of the many different peoples of this country. The military is not our first line of defence. The good sense and tolerance of the vast majority of people is that, and even if in the UK this has taken a bit of a battering of late I think it is remarkably intact although with a few frayed edges stirred up as much by extreme little Englanders as much as by any Islamic extremism. I am not complacent and am aware we face many problems from within and without of our country. I do not accept hysterical outbursts of the kind expressed by Azirish serve any purpose other than to instil his own prejudice into the people of my country.

I am not a pacifist, although my instincts are that of a pacifist. I see the value of armed forces in a dangerous world, although I do hope the day comes when they shall be unnecessary. But I just do not see the value of those armed forces being deployed in illegal and unjust wars abroad which only serve to stir up more hatred toward the west than already exists and such misadventures seem to me to be rather fruitless and counterproductive exercises.

Frances a fool, stupid and ignorant Azirish? No she is none of these things. She has ideals which may be for generations yet to come but she knows the reality of the world and its miseries. Some of what she says is right for now too. Negotiating settlements of the worlds problems and trying to find ways of satisfying the dispossessed is always much better than having a war to do so. And resolution without war is often possible with a common will to achieve that. Your criticism of her is demeaning and insulting and shows no understanding of neither her commitment to humanity or just what goes on in this country. If your understanding of what goes on here is so far off mark, I fear your understanding of what happens elsewhere is also and somewhat jaundiced I suspect by your own prejudice.

[CuddlyKate]

Like I said, Darkeyes... the little you know about the world becomes apparent the more you talk about it.

Goodnight.

*Taylor*

Because she has high ideals does not mean she knows little of the world. It is her knowledge of the world which has substantially formed those ideals rightly or wrongly. She has a voracious appetite for knowledge Taylor, and much more understanding of the world than you give her credit for. It may lead her to different answers from you or I but do not underestimate either that knowledge or that understanding. Frances is no Christian and so does not believe in a God or Jesus being the son of God. Yet she is quite the most Christian person I have ever met. She has a faith in humanity that puts all of us to shame.

[12voltman59]

Well--everyone does have their perspecitive of the "way things are"---it seemed that we used to be able reconcile those varying world viewpoints---come to some sort of general agreement about things---but with all the fracturing of the media into niche markets and such---it only helps to allow people to hold to their views---have them reinforced and such---

Bill Clinton, in the midst of his "staingate" troubles really did say something very profound and without knowing it---captured the zeigest of the times when he said:

"It all depends on what your definition of 'is-is'!"

I guess that the best we can do is to amicably "agree that we disagree"---

I know myself--I want to rant and ramble about things like this--if someone agrees with me--I am "preaching to the choir" but to those who have a different view--I am "pissing in the wind" by expressing my view--because either way---I am not changing anyone's mind.

Wandering Richard took me to task about providing "objective truth" regarding my rant about Bush---well to that I say--I can take you to a Barnes and Noble or Borders Bookstore--we can go to the political book section--I can show you all of the books written on the 'evil' deeds of George W. Bush and company--and you can show me all of the books written about how he is just the best thing since sliced white Wonder Bread and how he his a decisivie leader that just had to come at this time and such---

The authors of both strains of books can point to the same set of "objective" facts and they come to diametrically opposite conclusions regarding those facts.

So--as Bill Clinton said--"it all depends on what your defintion of is-is"

My feelings about Bush and his entire crew---"the sooner we throw the bum out the better! (actually we should never have had him in there and but for five votes of the Surpreme Court back in 2000--we would not have ever had him)

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!!!!:bigrin::bigrin::bigrin::2cents::2cents:

[*pan*]

in azirish reply "How can you suport the troops but not the mission? Thats like not supporting the message but I supporting the messenger(s). (Can you eat but not swallow?)If you don't support the mission you don't support our troops.

i did not believe in or support the war in vietnam but did support the troops, when you join or are drafted you are in for a tour of service to your country, the military goes where they are told by the government, they dont start wars, they dont decide which country to goto and guard or war with, they are just like us, we also are told what we can and cant do by the government, so i support the brave young people that serve my country, no matter their mission in the world as long as it complies with the world rules of war and humanity. until they find a way to stop war ( by the way ww-1 then ww-2 were supposed to do that), we will have a military.
i personaly can't look into a soldiers eyes who risked his life doing what he was ordered to do within the rules and see any wrong in him.
personaly i hate war and was against going to war over there this time and the last but it was decided by our elected officials to goto war.
therefore if anyone has to sling shit at someone sling it in the right direction and not at our troops.

[liquidcandycain]

thank you

[the mage]

That was a dictatorship. Ours is a democracy. The Germans had no option to throw out their authoritarian leader, or to even speak against him. We do, and we will. That's the big difference.


HITLER WAS ELECTED TO POWER ............

[the mage]

woooooow
after reading darkeyes and barefoot's reply's lol im not shure if that job at piggly wiggly looks all that bad lmao hell im setting here still im uniform and to be specific when we "uphold a war hero" its normally done for what he did to save his fellow comrads ass's henc most moh holders arent alive but anywho
several of ya have very argumentive but valid points to be honest i dot have a issue whit definding some assholes right to call me a babykiller and yet fuck 6 crack heads in one night and wonder why they got knocked up yet to still get a abortion and tag it on the curtail of its a womans choice thats unfortionalty thats one of the things i get paid for were not all bad as the people who exsperianced katrina found out

but moreover there is an issue in the ranks as we get ready to head over to afgani we are having a very very serious issue with having enough people to get the job done and the new guys that are here are about as trustworth and dependable and a free tax return from the gov drugs rape sposeabouse crime in general is rampant in the military and due to the shortage we cant "weedout" the one we dont want ive been here for 9 years and after all the time in forgine lands time spent in the field countless failed relationships loss of friends and family not to mention scocial life i dunno why i still do it epessially as i come up on my indefinate retention date meaning i will be forced to stay in untile i retire there is a issue with the military part on the soldiers and part on the gov hell everyone hates us we stick our noses where allot of times it dont belong but theres 2 sides to every coin we have build countless schools pipelines hospitals ect to nations that didnt have such before iraq seems to be the huge issue been there done that left friends there to not return what did the people ask for when the towers fell revenge kill them kill them all and (not defending bush but put yourself in his shoes) what did we get just what was asked at the price of ours sons and daughters now the heat has cooled and a situation has been made and were left holding the bag do i want to go to afghan fuck no iraq only for the cheap gold but im told to go so we go

to the point the military is heading to a breaking point sooner than most think vacant ranks piss poor pay fucked up supply system way to much beauricratic bs and tired weary soldiers divorces are up and so is suicide just get on the net and look up 101st statistics but we will trudge on and when the smoke settles we will get back on the plaine come home and in 10 months do it all over again the train is running out of steam i see it the upper ranks see it and apparently the gov sees it but we are all exsendable and will be replaced as needed or if we do pull out there will be a huge over staffing and people like me will be forced out to cut the numbers and that will just lead to more and more riasing unemployment numbers injured vets ect we have seen it before and will see it again

i do thank everyone who voices there opinion good and bad thats why we have free speach thank you for all who have supported us

no one loves a soldier till the enemy is at the front gate


I APPLAUD YOU SIR!.....,,,Your personal insight verifies in a big way the article's point. The brave and sincere are are being damaged and replaced by the men with no other options.
The foot soldier is not the criminal in war, it is the 4 star general who gives the command to kill for politics.

[the mage]

You know I don't always agree with you, DD. . .but that's exactly what I was trying to say but couldn't quite articulate.

*Taylor*


THERE IS NO WAR IN NATURE!!!!

There is fight for survival.
ONLY MAN convinced of his gawd hood wages war.

[the mage]

Volty, please submit objective proof of your allegations, you have my email addy..
Rich


Well, a bush was in control of the CIA during Iran -Contra.
Also during the big "energy crisis"....
and now a Bush at war while the people get poorer again.

[darkeyes]

..........The arguments against being peaceful are for the ones who do not dream, and those who do not see spreading peace AS as survival method.........

...........CHANGE is hard.

The world of the dreamer is the world yet to be... upon dreams have great things been achieved and but for the dreamer our world would be a sadder and far more miserable place than it is today.... but for the dreamer and visionary much joy would be missing from the world and were it not for those who dream, our species would most likely still be no more than but the prey of the wild beast..

Change is hard Ian, you are right... but humankind you know as well as I, has made what were considered impossible changes before and will do so again... the dreamer provides the vision for the great changes still to be made, and the greatest of dreamers themselves put them into effect. The enlightened follow and become dreamers themselves and so to our world there is no limit to what can be achieved if we set our minds to it.

Those who say nothing will change ignore the dreamers and visionaries of history and the great strides our kind has made from it the time it first became sentient. My faith in my own species to prosper and for the visions and dreams of those much greater and more brilliant than I to become reality is absolute. It will be a hard road. At times as has been the case throughout history cataclysmic events and the actions of selfish, greedy and uncaring people will endanger those visions and almost extinguish them becoming reality. Yet my faith in humanity to overcome remains as brilliant in my mind as ever it was. My faith in the ultimate triumph of the human spirit and its compassion and genius for all that, remains absolute.

However much people of little vision ridicule my dreams, I remain secure in the knowledge that those visions and dreams are, to me, intact. Wiser, greater, more brilliant and articulate dreamers than I have been ridiculed through the ages, and they will be again. Yet time and again we find that their dreams cease to be, not because they were not feasible or were unrealistic... but because the greatest of those dreams, once so ridiculed, and often persecuted and proscribed, we live today.

[DiamondDog]

THERE IS NO WAR IN NATURE!!!!

There is fight for survival.
ONLY MAN convinced of his gawd hood wages war.

Says who?

Look at evolution, natural selection, viruses, bacteria, genetics, the concept of a pack, human reproduction with a single sperm cell, predator/prey, and cockroaches.

Primates and other animals have been proven to wage war against each other.

[darkeyes]

Says who?

Look at evolution, natural selection, viruses, bacteria, genetics, the concept of a pack, human reproduction with a single sperm cell, predator/prey, and cockroaches.

Primates and other animals have been proven to wage war against each other.

Diff is DD..war in nature usually for survival not jus cos they wanna... man only species that goes 2 war jus cos e wants 2... an has the thot process to cum 2 a diff conclusion..... well e is sposed 2 ne way...don use it 2 much tho dus e? Wich is an always has been me point!

[vittoria]

Obviously, Pan meant that he supported our troops in what they did within the bounds of the Geneva Convention. If not so stated, I'm sure he would agree.

I wonder how many Brits would support Darkeyes in her implied contention that American troops would march innocent civilians to the gas chamber. Or in the alternative, how many Brits agree that the GI's who were sent to England to stage the Normandy invasion agree with the Brit war time slogan that the American GI in Britain at that time was "Overpaid, over sexed and over here!"



I dont know what to tell any of you.

Personally, I plan to run for the hills (if not for GPS, night vision, heat technology, and all of that jazz)

There's some 1984/V for Vendetta sh*t going on... and I really dont know if the "hardcore political" or the (alleged) uber patriotic either know or care.

There are LIVES at stake, whether it be the soldiers from this country who believe they are fighting for our fights (or fighting because the government says so) or the 'run of the mill civilian' walking down the street.

There's more stuff going on than "a war on terror", and thats a fact. It seems to me (whether erroneous or not) that our rights are eroding in the name of Liberty right before our very eyes... and once we realize what is going on... we will be killed for it.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h110-1955

And oh...about concentration camps in the US... (yes they have been here before... I wasnt around for it, but those of Asiatic descent had to suffer royal for what they LOOKED like in the 1940's...)

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/concentration.html

This is our business as the public to question our surroundings. Take away that right, the right to protest, the right to believe what we want to, and we are screwed.

The word "force" can take on many connotations. If someone belongs to a religion, has the freedom to express it, goes out door to door preaching as is their right... can that be taken to mean that those people are "forcing" others to change their beliefs? Yes.

If we dont agree with the state of affairs that is going on in this place, as we have a RIGHT to, and demonstrate within the limits of the law (heh), can that be construed as "force"? Yup.

Ask a couple of people who have already been imprisoned for peaceful protest. If they yell and scream, more power. Is that an excuse to USE FORCE by means of tazing and wrestling people to the ground who arent even lifting a finger....only their VOICES?

Just have a differing point of view and you see how easily we are labeled as "unpatriotic" and words of "how DARE you" come flying across the room.

Yes, our liberties are being taken away. And yes, Freedom ISNT free.

By the way... Those "NewJack Concentration Camps" that Halli and Co. are building cost $400 million dollars... once they are used for their 'original' intent, who are they going to use them on?? Its not like they arent going to try to get their $400 million dollars worth....

Now, pardon me while I figure out whether or not I prefer gas chamber or firing squad ( or even a good ol'fashioned lynchin)---:soapbox:

[TaylorMade]

THERE IS NO WAR IN NATURE!!!!

There is fight for survival.
ONLY MAN convinced of his gawd hood wages war.

You have NEVER watched "Trials of Life", have you?

I recommend it. One of the best docs the BBC ever put out... Nature isn't pretty, and the absolute epitome of "Life is nasty, brutish and short."

Some people on this forum seem to enjoy more than a fist up their ass, it seems.

*Taylor*

[TaylorMade]

Because she has high ideals does not mean she knows little of the world. It is her knowledge of the world which has substantially formed those ideals rightly or wrongly. She has a voracious appetite for knowledge Taylor, and much more understanding of the world than you give her credit for. It may lead her to different answers from you or I but do not underestimate either that knowledge or that understanding. Frances is no Christian and so does not believe in a God or Jesus being the son of God. Yet she is quite the most Christian person I have ever met. She has a faith in humanity that puts all of us to shame.

Thank you, Cheering Section, I mean, Cuddly K. . .Listen, I'm sure all you say is true, but- - you're her partner, you are supposed to say stuff like this, so you can understand my reaction:

That's nice. . . her ideas still smack of idiocy born of a blindness to the vagaries of human nature and an inaccurate view of governments and human interaction.

And why play the religion card here? Was that a weak attempt to shame me?

<pat on the head... nice try, better luck next time.

*Taylor*

[Azrael]

That's nice. . . her ideas still smack of idiocy born of a blindness to the vagaries of human nature and an inaccurate view of governments and human interaction.


*Taylor*

Or some of us aren't yet quite as hopeless as this sort of blind acceptance of the status quo. Just saying. If we hope to survive as a species we have to evolve beyond our current flinging of technocratic feces and destruction of sovereign nations.


Don't rip on people just because they think there's got to be a better way, and aren't as comfortable as everyone else with the feeling of the bit in their mouths.



"Has the blood you've shed turned the darkness into light? NO!"
-Immolation

[TaylorMade]

Or some of us aren't yet quite as hopeless as this sort of blind acceptance of the status quo. Just saying. If we hope to survive as a species we have to evolve beyond our current flinging of technocratic feces and destruction of sovereign nations.


Don't rip on people just because they think there's got to be a better way, and aren't as comfortable as everyone else with the feeling of the bit in their mouths.



"Has the blood you've shed turned the darkness into light? NO!"
-Immolation

I am not helpless, nor am I blind. I don't live in a world of conspiracy theories nor do I wander around in an unrealistic fog.

I live the daily grind of real life, but find joy in being kind to others and brushing up my corner of the world. . .yet I know that people on this 3rd rock are not going to get along...lower creatures with less worries battle one another in deadlier conflict than we. . . if we are this further along on the ladder and we have not solved it, maybe it is time we should admit to ourselves that, yes. . . we fight and it is in our blood. . .every system will have people taking advantage of one another, because every human would administer the world differently if they were in charge, screwing SOMEONE over in the process.


I believe in an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out.
— Arthur Hays Sulzberger

*Taylor*

[Azrael]

"It's good to have an open mind, but not so open your brains fall out."

~~ Approximated from Will Rodgers.

*Taylor*

I'll just have to respectfully beg to differ. Don't feel bad. The state says I'm insane ;)
btw, I said hope, not help.

[wolfcamp]

THERE IS NO WAR IN NATURE!!!!

There is fight for survival.
ONLY MAN convinced of his gawd hood wages war.

That's not correct. Chimpanzees wage war against other individuals and groups. They send groups out to patrol their group's territorial perimeter, and they send war parties out against other chimp bands. That's what I was referring to in my previous post. Since chimps are our closest relatives, and we both wage war, then it's likely that warfare goes back to a time before we split apart, which is roughly 6 million years. Of course, chimps don't use AR-15s and howitzers, but it's definitely a form of warfare.

[wanderingrichard]

There are a whole host of reasons that I think Bush is a lousy president-but I will let this draft of a list of Articles of Impeachment of Bush and Cheney being prepared in different quarters serve as a good starting place: (this list comes from the following site: http://www.impeachbush.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5054&news_iv_ctrl=1061)

"________ outing" of a CIA operative for purely political purposes---just among a few things-- all a hell of a lot more serious stuff than Clinton getting his woody sucked by an intern!!!!!

Good ole, dependable Voltie! thanx, dude, you've done exactly as i had hoped you would.. articulated what a lot of others here either have not, would not, or could not.

getting back to the original path of the thread, if i recall, you too are a veteran of that time, so you know the stakes involved regarding our military...correct? all the more reason, having been there done that, to be able to articulate, as you have done, to those who cannot understand, be they foreign or domestic.

after all, history shows, and this includes our own, that some of the best statesmen the world has ever known, were former members of a military some time in their lives.

[wolfcamp]

HITLER WAS ELECTED TO POWER ............

Yes, I hear he carried heavy majorities in all the red states. But kidding aside, nobody was able to oppose him once he was in, especially after that little assassination attempt. Any opposition would have received a visit from the SS, and probably a trip to the labor camps.

I sincerely hope our political system, as dysfunctional as it is, would prevent anything like the travesty that took place in Germany with the rise of Hitler.

[TaylorMade]

Yes, I hear he carried heavy majorities in all the red states. But kidding aside, nobody was able to oppose him once he was in, especially after that little assassination attempt. Any opposition would have received a visit from the SS, and probably a trip to the labor camps.

I sincerely hope our political system, as dysfunctional as it is, would prevent anything like the travesty that took place in Germany with the rise of Hitler.

And that's why we have the 2nd amendment.

*Taylor*

[Falke]

HITLER WAS ELECTED TO POWER ............

Yes and no, Hitler was elected chancellor of Germany in 33' basically as a minister of state. President Hindenburg *Leader of the Weimarch Republic* was still in control but his health was going downhill, when he died in 34' Hitler took control as Fuhrer of Germany by combining both offices of Chancellor and President. So, yes he was elected as chancellor, but he wasn't elected as leader of Germany.

It's rather scary as it could happen in any country and no one would pick up on it until it was too late!


Any opposition would have received a visit from the SS, and probably a trip to the labor camps.

Actually, those who opposed the Nazi state would be visited by the Gestapo. While under the ultimate control of Himmler, they were consitered different organizations.

[Falke]

And that's why we have the 2nd amendment.

*Taylor*

Unfortunantly, politians are trying thier asses off to take that away.


How I see it...

I respect and support the troops. These guys are out there trying to do thier jobs and service to thier country. Really, if you don't like what is going on with the war, look to the politians who decided we should go in, as both sides voted a go. Further, like Vietnam but to a lesser extent, they insist on meddling instead of letting go in and do thier jobs. Anyhow, even if you don't agree with the cause, thank the troops for putting thier tails on the line for our country.

[DiamondDog]

Yes, I hear he carried heavy majorities in all the red states. But kidding aside, nobody was able to oppose him once he was in, especially after that little assassination attempt. Any opposition would have received a visit from the SS, and probably a trip to the labor camps.

I sincerely hope our political system, as dysfunctional as it is, would prevent anything like the travesty that took place in Germany with the rise of Hitler.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Even though I don't like this current govenment and ALL presidents are just figureheads, without real power; but you can't compare Bush to Hitler.

Doing so is disrespectful to people who lived under Hitler and Holocaust survivors.

[TaylorMade]

Unfortunantly, politians are trying thier asses off to take that away.


How I see it...

I respect and support the troops. These guys are out there trying to do thier jobs and service to thier country. Really, if you don't like what is going on with the war, look to the politians who decided we should go in, as both sides voted a go. Further, like Vietnam but to a lesser extent, they insist on meddling instead of letting go in and do thier jobs. Anyhow, even if you don't agree with the cause, thank the troops for putting thier tails on the line for our country.

And that's the least people could do. Seriously.

EtA: Sometimes I think some people forget there ARE members of the military on this forum (Active duty), and they feel lonely enough among fellow soldiers. . .but some of the posts here, pouring contempt on their occupation because it doesn't fit into their political paradigm. . .geez. :(

*Taylor*

[wolfcamp]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Even though I don't like this current govenment and ALL presidents are just figureheads, without real power; but you can't compare Bush to Hitler.

Doing so is disrespectful to people who lived under Hitler and Holocaust survivors.

I wasn't drawing a comparison. In fact, just the opposite. I had pointed out earlier that we have the choice of unseating our president through elections, or other politicians for that matter, if we don't like their leadership. Then when someone pointed out that Hitler was elected, I implied that he basically declared himself dictator. Then she said...and, and...then he said...then...oh bother. Never mind.

What were we talking about again...?

[12voltman59]

Here is a very sober discussion of the merits regarding the possible impeachment of George W. Bush---with the call coming from "CONSERVATIVE" Constitutional Scholar Bruce Fein who wrote the Articles of Impeachement against Bill Clinton.

Fein, along with John Nichols--a long time columnist who has written a book about the value of impeachment in our system---were interviewed by Bill Moyers on his PBS program: "Bill Moyers Journal" this past summer.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07132007/profile.html

It is definitely worth watching this interview.

[darkeyes]

Thank you, Cheering Section, I mean, Cuddly K. . .Listen, I'm sure all you say is true, but- - you're her partner, you are supposed to say stuff like this, so you can understand my reaction:

That's nice. . . her ideas still smack of idiocy born of a blindness to the vagaries of human nature and an inaccurate view of governments and human interaction.

And why play the religion card here? Was that a weak attempt to shame me?

<pat on the head... nice try, better luck next time.

*Taylor*
Ya can b a rite patronisin an viscious cow wenya likes Taylor.... but thats ok..am used 2 it from so called Christian peeps..amazin how they profess 2 believe in the word of the Lord an yet wiv every word that rolls outa ther gobs or offa ther keyboard is so often quite anotha... ratha b blind an a looney than play the hypocrite. But then thats so often the lot of religies... ratha Kate had neva raised the matta.. but now at least ya knows wer she gorrit from... an she is rong... nowt Christian bout me wotsoeva...jus me hopes common humanitarianism. Not 2 convinced ya knows much bout that tho dus ya hun? She didnt need ta shame ya...ya dus it quite well on ya own!

Ne ways..me notes the claims of me idiotic an blind viewsa things... don c 2 much yabber from ya bout jus wots lunatic bout ne analysis me has made bout eitha me undastandin of government or human interaction.. mayb wot shud b dun ya pik up on an ya hav..an thats ok... we all c things from our own perspective an in accord wiv our own beliefs... least mine r borna hope an faith in humanity an not despair an resignation that things cant or wont get betta...

[GreenEyedLady(GEL)]

All is very well. Nobody like troups of any nation to be at harm. But the point here is... When the Comander in Chief is totaly inept and as he has showen many times a idiot ....Sorry but the troups have not got a chance. Get them out of there pleaseeeeeeee:(

Finally someone hit it on the nail with out having to attack someones views.
Thank you Oralplus.

Fran, I love the the kindness and goodness in you babes. Though your views there is a light at the end of the tunnel my friend. Stick by your guns sweetie. HUGS

[GreenEyedLady(GEL)]

Proverbial guns hehe , not real ones :)

[the mage]

Says who?

Look at evolution, natural selection, viruses, bacteria, genetics, the concept of a pack, human reproduction with a single sperm cell, predator/prey, and cockroaches.

Primates and other animals have been proven to wage war against each other.


PLEASE tell me you're just being argumentative here...please...

MILLIONS died in WW1 which started with of the killing of 1 man.

Hitler burned countless millions in ovens cause they didn't look right.

We left any pretense of "natural" behind us 1000 years ago.

I'm utterly aghast, please read below...

[the mage]

Yes, I hear he carried heavy majorities in all the red states. But kidding aside, nobody was able to oppose him once he was in, especially after that little assassination attempt. Any opposition would have received a visit from the SS, and probably a trip to the labor camps.

I sincerely hope our political system, as dysfunctional as it is, would prevent anything like the travesty that took place in Germany with the rise of Hitler.

It was the apathy of the very comfortable middle class that let him assume all command......(hint)

[wolfcamp]

[QUOTE=DiamondDog;87993]Says who?

Look at evolution, natural selection, viruses, bacteria, genetics, the concept of a pack, human reproduction with a single sperm cell, predator/prey, and cockroaches.

Primates and other animals have been proven to wage war against each other.




PLEASE tell me you're just being argumentative here...please...
MILLIONS died in WW1 which started with of the killing of 1 man.
Hitler burned countless millions in ovens cause they didn't look right.
We left any pretense of "natural" behind us 1000 years ago.
I'm utterly aghast, please read below...


DD is not so far off. Let's leave the virus's and bacteria out of it for a moment and just talk about primates Chimps send patrols out to defend their territory from competing bands. They are saying we want all the bananas and women for ourselves. (Ha ha, don't take banana too metaphorically here. :tongue: ) At the same time, they will try to take over the territory of other bands if they feel they are strong enough to get away with it. The territory of the chimps' universe is basically restricted to a few jungle valleys. It's a matter of protecting their resources.

Now scale that up to the 21st century. We are not much different. We are just a little more clever about disguising our motives. We sent troops to a foreign country under the guise of ejecting a vicious leader, but, oh gee, the coincidental benefit is that we also now happen to control the center of the region with the richest oil fields in all the world. We made a grab for all the bananas. We should call a spade a spade. (I'm not so sure we want the women, though, unless they ditch those veils.) Setting ethics aside, I'm not so sure it wasn't a smart move in a strategic sense (or do I mean tactical? I never can remember) for the United States, had it worked, considering the coming energy shortages and the competition and chaos (and probably warfare) that will accompany it. I think we ain't seen nothin' yet.

Anyway, I think our attraction to warfare is buried very deep in our primitive roots, and it DOES go back to nature. I will give you, though, that any animals that employ warfare must operate on a social level, so I think that leaves out viruses.

Let me just add, that I think I could make the argument that warfare is not only a human expression of a very ancient and primitive behavior, but it is really an amplification of that behavior. We didn't leave it behind, we expanded it and improved it, if you could call it that. If you could view humans without our ego-centric bias of superiority, you would see that we are really no different than the other animals.

[wolfcamp]

It was the apathy of the very comfortable middle class that let him assume all command......(hint)

Don't look at me. I didn't vote for him.

[12voltman59]

More on the Impeach Bush movement:


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rep-robert-wexler/the-case-for-impeachment-_b_76846.html

[void()]

A silent scream begins to well inside ...

There are no correct responses to madness, only more of the same. And reading over the posts in this thread, lots of madness is revealed. There has always been Love and Reason, Neil Peart of Rush did not make them up for a classical progressive rock opera called Cygnus XI.

He wrote a great epic based upon what many folks through the ages perceived. Love and Reason cause apart cause wars. They enjoy competing to attain each soul, as Peart writes, "every soul a battlefield!"

What does a song have to do with any of aspect of this thread?

It is a means to further articulate my opinion of war, and perhaps as Fran has pointed out, share a dream. You see Love as another songwriter, Bono of U2, puts it can build a world for you and your family.

Love can also destroy worlds, though. You love your family so much you shall kill another's family to ensure the safety of your own.

Reason is much the same, only we tend to allow reason to be a scapegoat to determine values, means to an end. "He had good reason to shoot the masked bandit, the bandit would have killed him."

Which brings me to a clearly defined point. I'm unsure where it was read / heard or otherwise assimilated into my knowledge, but man is the only animal on earth that kills for sport. That means if given the choice a guy or gall will kill another living being on a whim, a choice. Hell, there doesn't need to be a reason, just kill it.

And notice, I called mankind (inclusive of the female gender, the trans, all of us human beings), animals. We've not escaped nature and to lie to yourself with all this technological and scientific codswallop is indeed quite perverse. You're a fucking monkey boy the same as me. We are no better than say an earthworm.

Noting this I put view across directly, forgive me if the voice is quiet.

All of us need to get the fuck over ourselves! Wake up and realize this Earth, our home is running out space for our petty bickering, our bullshit plastic personas, our destruction of natural resources, our dying hungry diseased and otherwise opressed! We are all one damn family, the human family, now sit the fuck down, shut up and think folks, we gotta stop this shit of killing ourselves over petty differences! Deaths as result of wars are needless!

Further I suggest we go back to something called having respect and dignity for one another because it's what we appreciate having ourselves. Gee, the Golden Rule, anyone?

Ben tosses the talking stick onto the table and wanders out into his void.

Ben peeks back in and says, "Oh and check out the following sites if you truly want to help. If not fuck off, I don't care. http://www.freerice.com/ and http://www.one.org/ " Then he wanders back out.

[canuckotter]

Which brings me to a clearly defined point. I'm unsure where it was read / heard or otherwise assimilated into my knowledge, but man is the only animal on earth that kills for sport. That means if given the choice a guy or gall will kill another living being on a whim, a choice. Hell, there doesn't need to be a reason, just kill it.

No offense, but right here you've just proven that you're full of crap. Either that, or you've never owned a cat or known someone who has. :rolleyes:

[void()]

No offense, but right here you've just proven that you're full of crap. Either that, or you've never owned a cat or known someone who has. :rolleyes:

That's so funny I forgot to laugh.

You don't own cats first of all, they choose to live with you or not. And we have lived with quite a few, and still have a few living with us presently. They kill as part of hunting, to feed themselves, or to bestow as gifts to other cats, or people. Although I do grant our male cats have been engaging in the age old pissing wars over the ladies recently. They have words and fight. They don't kill one another, or at least so far as we've seen.

And if I'm full of crap then at least the company kept is nice. Wouldn't you agree? You were fine until you suggested I haven't owned a cat. You're correct, I don't own any cats. Dogs you may get by with owning, cats whip out deeds to your house, car titles, safe keys, your most recent undergarments and look at you and ask "who owns who?"

As point of fact, I'm pretty much against owning animals. The concept of owning really doesn't appeal much to me. I'm just passing through, after all, besides you don't get to keep anything when you go away.

Then again, I do have my own thoughts and ideas at times. Don't tell anyone I do, please. I so dislike smiling politely at the thought police. It's always a bother living in a hole where there is no night, too. And whence I secure an escape from such, I shall indeed track you and reward you with the like.

"Oh look canuckotter is having their own idea this very moment, seize them!" Then again, the Bush has shown us the preemptive way. Club others before they club you!

[disclaimer & such]

In case it was missed, there's a healthy dose of satire within this post. Apologies if anyone misconstrues this to mean I'm threating to track anyone down. I've no such intentions, unless some extremely nice bloke wants to be patient and enjoy a LTR. Otherwise, no intention to foster any maliciousness toward any. Live and let live. And by the way canuckotter, no offense taken.

[vittoria]

[disclaimer & such]

In case it was missed, there's a healthy dose of satire within this post. Apologies if anyone misconstrues this to mean I'm threating to track anyone down. I've no such intentions, unless some extremely nice bloke wants to be patient and enjoy a LTR. Otherwise, no intention to foster any maliciousness toward any. Live and let live. And by the way canuckotter, no offense taken.



LOL

I'm SOO diggin the disclaimer...
wish I would've thought of that :rolleyes:

huggles,
V

[DiamondDog]

A silent scream begins to well inside ...

There are no correct responses to madness, only more of the same. And reading over the posts in this thread, lots of madness is revealed. There has always been Love and Reason, Neil Peart of Rush did not make them up for a classical progressive rock opera called Cygnus XI.

He wrote a great epic based upon what many folks through the ages perceived. Love and Reason cause apart cause wars. They enjoy competing to attain each soul, as Peart writes, "every soul a battlefield!"

What does a song have to do with any of aspect of this thread?

It is a means to further articulate my opinion of war, and perhaps as Fran has pointed out, share a dream. You see Love as another songwriter, Bono of U2, puts it can build a world for you and your family.

Love can also destroy worlds, though. You love your family so much you shall kill another's family to ensure the safety of your own.

Reason is much the same, only we tend to allow reason to be a scapegoat to determine values, means to an end. "He had good reason to shoot the masked bandit, the bandit would have killed him."

Which brings me to a clearly defined point. I'm unsure where it was read / heard or otherwise assimilated into my knowledge, but man is the only animal on earth that kills for sport. That means if given the choice a guy or gall will kill another living being on a whim, a choice. Hell, there doesn't need to be a reason, just kill it.

And notice, I called mankind (inclusive of the female gender, the trans, all of us human beings), animals. We've not escaped nature and to lie to yourself with all this technological and scientific codswallop is indeed quite perverse. You're a fucking monkey boy the same as me. We are no better than say an earthworm.

Noting this I put view across directly, forgive me if the voice is quiet.

All of us need to get the fuck over ourselves! Wake up and realize this Earth, our home is running out space for our petty bickering, our bullshit plastic personas, our destruction of natural resources, our dying hungry diseased and otherwise opressed! We are all one damn family, the human family, now sit the fuck down, shut up and think folks, we gotta stop this shit of killing ourselves over petty differences! Deaths as result of wars are needless!

Further I suggest we go back to something called having respect and dignity for one another because it's what we appreciate having ourselves. Gee, the Golden Rule, anyone?

Ben tosses the talking stick onto the table and wanders out into his void.

Ben peeks back in and says, "Oh and check out the following sites if you truly want to help. If not fuck off, I don't care. http://www.freerice.com/ and http://www.one.org/ " Then he wanders back out.

I think we should take care of our own starving/impoverished/people in need of medical aid in our own country first before dealing with continents of starving people in other countries.

Remember Live Aid and how all of the food donated just sat in storage houses/in the docks for months and rotted?

Most money/food/medical donations go directly to the non profit organizations that are supposed to help other countries and keep the "non profit" organizations afloat, or the money is used to line the pockets of the directors of such organizations.

Or if the supplies/food/etc. actually make it to the country the wealthy people in the country who can afford to purchase them get the supplies/money/food first, or it stays within the governments of those countries instead of going to the people who actually need them.

Also don't forget how many other non-western cultures and the people who live in them simply don't trust Western food/medicine/technology, and many don't even want help or won't accept help from other Western countries.

Perhaps you should meditate more in your ashram, watch some Sally Struthers infomercials, and listen to more of George McGovern's rhetoric about feeding the world before you post again?

[void()]

Diamond Dog, a few points for you to consider.

First, at least it is a vision working toward a solution for everyone, not just a select cadre of other nations outside our own. It will work toward feeding all the hungry.

Second, not everyone is as you write. "Most money/food/medical donations go directly to the non profit organizations that are supposed to help other countries and keep them afloat or line the pockets of the directors of such organizations." There are folks genuinely vesting themselves of the labor needed to ensure the food/ money/ medical care doesn't just line the coffers of the affluent or go to waste. Why are they doing this? It's because they genuinely care about others, and don't want rewards for helping out.

"Also don't forget how many other non-western cultures and the people who live in them simply don't trust Western food/medicine/technology, and many don't even want help or won't accept help from other Western countries."

Thirdly addressing the above; Fine. There are other ways that help may funnel into communities. Often anonymous benefactors can and will take money, medicine, food from Western or Eastern or what ever and disperse it without mention of where it came from, ensuring the help gets through. And you neglect to see that human beings do indeed understand compassion, and tolerance. If someone is pulling me out of a jam, it won't matter to me if they're purple, eat leeches and mock sporks. I'll be thankful and take the help I'm getting, and hope to some day repay that by offering help to another when it's needed.

Like I said, get over the petty bullshit. Death cares not of it honey. Once you're dead it don't matter if you're rich, poor, woman, man, child, black, white, Jew, Hindu, Christian, Atheist, Bisexual, Homosexual, Hetrosexual ... you're still beyond all doubt dead. So why not forgo all the damn labels and try to help one another live the best quality of life we can?

"Perhaps you should meditate more in your ashram, watch some Sally Struthers infomercials, and listen to more of George McGovern's rhetoric about feeding the world before you post again?"

Perhaps you should not be so disrespectful, it encourages folks to think you not worthy of belonging to humanity. I don't see you posting any kind of vision or solution, you're just attempting to tear down the work of others. And if that's all you've got, shut the fuck up because you're no better than a jealous little two year old in my eyes. Present a better way or don't attack the idea / dream that appears to be starting to help.

It isn't an overnight solution. No one has promised that, because Rome wasn't built in a day. As Fran said, change is difficult, but I believe we can do it. Now, if you want to rejoin the human race Diamond Dog, please do. My apologies if these words appeared harsh. You're words bordered on such, too, but I understand you. Disagree if you like, but at least have the courage to offer a better way. That's all I'm saying. And I don't see you offering anything.

And please don't refer to me as Dear. I often wonder given the adage of familiarity breeding contempt. I taste your contempt via the wires, but am fairly sure there exists no familiarity between us. Unless you're proposing such, which I doubt, the use of dear seems quite bitter and I don't merit such from you ... yet.

[DiamondDog]

Diamond Dog, a few points for you to consider.

First, at least it is a vision working toward a solution for everyone, not just a select cadre of other nations outside our own. It will work toward feeding all the hungry.

Second, not everyone is as you write. "Most money/food/medical donations go directly to the non profit organizations that are supposed to help other countries and keep them afloat or line the pockets of the directors of such organizations." There are folks genuinely vesting themselves of the labor needed to ensure the food/ money/ medical care doesn't just line the coffers of the affluent or go to waste. Why are they doing this? It's because they genuinely care about others, and don't want rewards for helping out.

"Also don't forget how many other non-western cultures and the people who live in them simply don't trust Western food/medicine/technology, and many don't even want help or won't accept help from other Western countries."

Thirdly addressing the above; Fine. There are other ways that help may funnel into communities. Often anonymous benefactors can and will take money, medicine, food from Western or Eastern or what ever and disperse it without mention of where it came from, ensuring the help gets through. And you neglect to see that human beings do indeed understand compassion, and tolerance. If someone is pulling me out of a jam, it won't matter to me if they're purple, eat leeches and mock sporks. I'll be thankful and take the help I'm getting, and hope to some day repay that by offering help to another when it's needed.

Like I said, get over the petty bullshit. Death cares not of it honey. Once you're dead it don't matter if you're rich, poor, woman, man, child, black, white, Jew, Hindu, Christian, Atheist, Bisexual, Homosexual, Hetrosexual ... you're still beyond all doubt dead. So why not forgo all the damn labels and try to help one another live the best quality of life we can?

"Perhaps you should meditate more in your ashram, watch some Sally Struthers infomercials, and listen to more of George McGovern's rhetoric about feeding the world before you post again?"

Perhaps you should not be so disrespectful, it encourages folks to think you not worthy of belonging to humanity. I don't see you posting any kind of vision or solution, you're just attempting to tear down the work of others. And if that's all you've got, shut the fuck up because you're no better than a jealous little two year old in my eyes. Present a better way or don't attack the idea / dream that appears to be starting to help.

It isn't an overnight solution. No one has promised that, because Rome wasn't built in a day. As Fran said, change is difficult, but I believe we can do it. Now, if you want to rejoin the human race Diamond Dog, please do. My apologies if these words appeared harsh. You're words bordered on such, too, but I understand you. Disagree if you like, but at least have the courage to offer a better way. That's all I'm saying. And I don't see you offering anything.

And please don't refer to me as Dear. I often wonder given the adage of familiarity breeding contempt. I taste your contempt via the wires, but am fairly sure there exists no familiarity between us. Unless you're proposing such, which I doubt, the use of dear seems quite bitter and I don't merit such from you ... yet.

Dear,
I never said that people in those counties shouldn't get to eat.

I just think that we should take care of people in our own neighborhoods/cities and communities first before just blindly giving away money/food/medical supplies/resources to countries where the people who actually need them won't ever get them and the ultra wealthy and the people in their corrupt government do get them. Or giving them away to countries where the people don't trust the food/technology/medical supplies because it's from Western countries. If you want proof of how Western culture/technology and medical practises are seen with distrust in African countries and other countries look at what people believe about HIV/AIDS in many African and Asian countries and cultures.

If you want to make a difference in your own town/city/community you can buy homeless people food or make kits for them that contain blankets, toothpaste/shampoo/mouthwash, clothing, food, vitamins, water, and other things that are badly needed.

I also don't think that we should be endorsing such organizations run by celebrities like One.org since it's a big media hype and these people have more money than everyone on this forum combined and they claim that they're into wanting change and could make big changes if they gave away a fraction of the money that they make per year as a musician/movie star. Also who is to say that people like that should be in charge? They're celebrities!

I have checked out One.org before and to me it seems like a lot of pointless petitions and people just getting together to whine about how nothing's being done and not actually offering any valid solutions or really doing anything.

I checked out the FreeRice.org link too and how do we REALLY know if rice is actually being donated? Why couldn't it just be donated without having people play a game daily or click on correct defintions of words?

[darkeyes]

I think we should take care of our own starving/impoverished/people in need of medical aid in our own country first before dealing with continents of starving people in other countries.



Lop 20 or 30 billion ofya war budget an insteada jus warrin use it for ya own peeps an ya cud do jus that... easily... an still hav a lot left ova 2 help otha peeps in otha places... then they mite decide yas not such a bad lot ofta all... course that means yas showin weakness huh??? An we cant hav that..fact that yad still hav far an away the mos massive military budget on the planet an still destroy a few hundred times don matta me sposes... ah well... the idiocy an lunacy of the pacifist... me jus such an unrealistic cow an expect far 2 much...

[Falke]

Lop 20 or 30 billion ofya war budget an insteada jus warrin use it for ya own peeps an ya cud do jus that... easily... an still hav a lot left ova 2 help otha peeps in otha places... then they mite decide yas not such a bad lot ofta all... course that means yas showin weakness huh??? An we cant hav that..fact that yad still hav far an away the mos massive military budget on the planet an still destroy a few hundred times don matta me sposes... ah well... the idiocy an lunacy of the pacifist... me jus such an unrealistic cow an expect far 2 much...

*Sigh* I wish babelfish made a translator for shorthand... I think I can translate it all...


Anyhow, yes it would be nice if everyone got off thier high horses and play nice. Yes, we could all work togther to make this world abit of a nicer place. However, trying to impliment this is purely irrational for one simple reason...some people will just not play nice.

One excellent example was post WW1 politics into the eve of WW2. Basically, England and the US were talking about practically scrapping thier navies. Both nations had fairly gutted armies between the wars. In the 1930's England had a very strong anti-war movement and the US had isolationist policies in place. Due in part to these two Germany was allowed to rebuild her army, airforce, and navy with no rammifications in the face of the Treaty of Versilles. Ultimately, Germany defied the Treaty of Versilles, reoccupied the Rhineland, and invaded Czechoslovakia. Through all of this, everyone wanted to keep the peace in hopes Hitler had enough. Of course, we all know this to be untrue. Germany and the Soviet Union take Poland, and war was finally declaired. Long story short, France falls, Eastern Europe falls first to the Nazis, then to the Soviets, Britian nearly gets invaded and millions of people are killed.

That is just one example, this sort of thing happens on a personal level everyday in each of our countries.

I am not saying become a hawk and fight everything that you don't agree with, but I am saying don't tell everyone to lay down thier arms because someone is always going to keep thiers hidden so that they may take command when everyone has disarmed. Keep armed and keep vigilant, that is all I am saying. However, anyone who pays attention to the history of humankind would know that pacifism just doesn't work.

Oh, I remember in another part of this thread, someone mentioned that critters only kill each other for food. Well, I can tell you... that isn't true by any means. It is not uncommon for creatures to fight or kill each other over territory...sounds familiar eh?

http://www.wolfcountry.net/information/WolfPack.html

[the mage]

Dear,
I never said that people in those counties shouldn't get to eat.

I just think that we should take care of people in our own neighborhoods/cities and communities first before just blindly giving away money/food/medical supplies/resources to countries where the people who actually need them won't ever get them and the ultra wealthy and the people in their corrupt government do get them. Or giving them away to countries where the people don't trust the food/technology/medical supplies because it's from Western countries. If you want proof of how Western culture/technology and medical practises are seen with distrust in African countries and other countries look at what people believe about HIV/AIDS in many African and Asian countries and cultures.

If you want to make a difference in your own town/city/community you can buy homeless people food or make kits for them that contain blankets, toothpaste/shampoo/mouthwash, clothing, food, vitamins, water, and other things that are badly needed.

I also don't think that we should be endorsing such organizations run by celebrities like One.org since it's a big media hype and these people have more money than everyone on this forum combined and they claim that they're into wanting change and could make big changes if they gave away a fraction of the money that they make per year as a musician/movie star. Also who is to say that people like that should be in charge? They're celebrities!

I have checked out One.org before and to me it seems like a lot of pointless petitions and people just getting together to whine about how nothing's being done and not actually offering any valid solutions or really doing anything.

I checked out the FreeRice.org link too and how do we REALLY know if rice is actually being donated? Why couldn't it just be donated without having people play a game daily or click on correct defintions of words?


......................OK' DD.... here's where you lose people.
You love to make grandiose sweeping generalizations, always to the detriment of some other kind of human. You constantly spew negativity to any informative post and you continue to throw sad little barbs to try to enrage other posters in the follow up.
You like to see your self type.
You are small. You are sad.
You claim to have seen the world...from behind your keyboard......
You profess a distaste for women and your posting shows distaste for people in general, You become the distasteful.

[DiamondDog]

......................OK' DD.... here's where you lose people.
You love to make grandiose sweeping generalizations, always to the detriment of some other kind of human. You constantly spew negativity to any informative post and you continue to throw sad little barbs to try to enrage other posters in the follow up.
You like to see your self type.
You are small. You are sad.
You claim to have seen the world...from behind your keyboard......
You profess a distaste for women and your posting shows distaste for people in general, You become the distasteful.

Have you looked in the mirror lately? Did you do that when you wrote that reply?

I've traveled all over north america, central america, europe, the UK, I've interacted with all types of people from different cultures, and I can speak 3 languages.

Does any of this actually matter? You're still going to dislike me. I don't even know why I'm even replying to this tripe or even giving it any attention at all.

As far as the "distaste" for women goes, I go through periods where I'm simply not sexually attracted to women at all. It doesn't last forever like it does for my gay male friends.

I know it's something that you don't really understand, and I know other people here don't always understand it but that's how it is for me. I understand it, and that's all that matters.

Also what's wrong with when I say how I don't want to get involved in a relationship with or date a heterosexual woman?

You don't flame the bisexual men who say how they only want a bisexual woman for a relationship, or the bisexual women who say that they only want to be with bisexual men for relationships.

[rider0660]

A few points need to be made. I am a veteran of the U.S. Army in both Desert Storm and Iraq Freedom. I have shot and been shot at. I went because of duty. Both wars were unpopular. Not as much as Veit Nam, but neither had an overwhelming support of the population. What all the Bush bashers and Nuremberg comparists are forgetting is that in both cases, the Commander in Chief went to congress, as specified in the constitution, and was granted by congress use of force. This wasnt one tin horn dictator making a land grab. This was the process as layed out by the framers of the constitution. There are there fore two seperate groups that should gain our ire. The first is a congress who bartered away U.S. Soldiers lives for politicaly expedincey. Remeber, the vote for the use of force came up to Congress just before the elections. Many Democratic and Republicans were worried about being seen as soft on terrorism and didnt dare quesiton the Bush administrations assertions as to the immediet need for military action in Iraq. Instead, they gave Bush carte blanche. Whatever any one's personal reasons for supporting the action, the cation was supported by an overwhleming majority of the US Congress as well as the american people as a whole. You can say Bush lied all you want but if he did dupe so many of us how can he be as stupid as many assert? I belive that many in the white house wanted to go and colored the facts to support their concluisons. A danger in any discipline.

The next part is more troubling. Once the decison was made, with concurrence from folks like Hillary, Kerry and Lebermann, Rumsfeldt then wanted to fight the war on the cheap. Further, he decided to not listen to the generals, the guys who really know how to do this, and sacrificed about 3,000 US Solders and Marines to his bull headed notion as to how a war should be fought. There is a legitmate role of congress as oversight to question stupidity like what Rumsfeldt showed, however congress, again given to the political expedency of re election, really never pushed Herr Rumsfeldt for legitimate answers to legimate questions on how a war, that congress agreed to , was being so criminally mismanaged.

Note that once Rumsfeld got the boot and Dave Petraeus got in there, pushed for the surge and got it, no more news from Iraq.

[vittoria]

A few points need to be made. I am a veteran of the U.S. Army in both Desert Storm and Iraq Freedom. I have shot and been shot at. I went because of duty. Both wars were unpopular. Not as much as Veit Nam, but neither had an overwhelming support of the population. What all the Bush bashers and Nuremberg comparists are forgetting is that in both cases, the Commander in Chief went to congress, as specified in the constitution, and was granted by congress use of force. This wasnt one tin horn dictator making a land grab. This was the process as layed out by the framers of the constitution. There are there fore two seperate groups that should gain our ire. The first is a congress who bartered away U.S. Soldiers lives for politicaly expedincey. Remeber, the vote for the use of force came up to Congress just before the elections. Many Democratic and Republicans were worried about being seen as soft on terrorism and didnt dare quesiton the Bush administrations assertions as to the immediet need for military action in Iraq. Instead, they gave Bush carte blanche. Whatever any one's personal reasons for supporting the action, the cation was supported by an overwhleming majority of the US Congress as well as the american people as a whole. You can say Bush lied all you want but if he did dupe so many of us how can he be as stupid as many assert? I belive that many in the white house wanted to go and colored the facts to support their concluisons. A danger in any discipline.

The next part is more troubling. Once the decison was made, with concurrence from folks like Hillary, Kerry and Lebermann, Rumsfeldt then wanted to fight the war on the cheap. Further, he decided to not listen to the generals, the guys who really know how to do this, and sacrificed about 3,000 US Solders and Marines to his bull headed notion as to how a war should be fought. There is a legitmate role of congress as oversight to question stupidity like what Rumsfeldt showed, however congress, again given to the political expedency of re election, really never pushed Herr Rumsfeldt for legitimate answers to legimate questions on how a war, that congress agreed to , was being so criminally mismanaged.

Note that once Rumsfeld got the boot and Dave Petraeus got in there, pushed for the surge and got it, no more news from Iraq.

Who really is in control of what information we receive? The media? The preview of the diplomats? The government? Who controls the media? ( And please dont tell me 'their bosses')

I have much respect for the work that soldiers do. Hell, a couple of my uncles, my grandfather, and even my great grandfather put on the uniform of the UnTIED States. (not a note of disrespect ... this country's shoes ARE untied--"we" keep tripping over "our" own feet)

Unfortunately, its not up to the average soldier to pick and choose which wars they will go to or not... the government OWNS the individual as soon as they put on a uniform.. you dont have the right to choose... all normal rights are dissolved ( the right of free speech, the right of dissent, the right to be home when your wife has a baby for Pete's sake). One gives up their rights and is underneath the ownership of the government. If one chooses not to go to war, they are called AWOL and all sorts of other things. When people sign up, they have a lot of things to do that harden them to day to day activities. They go because they are told. They have no other choice.... (today's youth should be grateful that those 'firing squad' and claims of 'treason' arent enforced like they used to be !!!) And, if the individual believes that his country's cause, right or wrong, is a just one, all the power to him/her as well. If there isnt a God, then one wont have to worry about any 'afterlife' repercussions (you know... that whole love thy neighbor as yourself thing...that whole thou shalt not kill thing... that whole thou shalt not hold any graven image or anything made in the image of the creation of heaven or earth before me thing(aka... no paying homage/bowing down to idols--ie. like most churches and every darn country on this planet in the form of a FLAG...but thats another thread and I'm not starting it) Personally, from my opinion, I dont think God would be too happy with everyone on this planet making claims on "offing" his fellow HUMAN (screw whether its American, Chinese, Korean, Anglo Saxon, etc etc) all for 'His' glory. "God bless (your country here)" for crying out loud! Thank goodness I'm not "Him" (or "Her" for those who are gender specific)--I would tell everyone to go stick it.

But here is some food for thought... (since I'm on a roll... actually a nice Kaiser bun... with a bit of brown mustard, horseradish, and sauerkraut)

I dont know what to tell any of you.

Personally, I plan to run for the hills (if not for GPS, night vision, heat technology, and all of that jazz)

There's some 1984/V for Vendetta sh*t going on... and I really dont know if the "hardcore political" or the (alleged) uber patriotic either know or care.

There are LIVES at stake, whether it be the soldiers from this country who believe they are fighting for our fights (or fighting because the government says so) or the 'run of the mill civilian' walking down the street.

There's more stuff going on than "a war on terror", and thats a fact. It seems to me (whether erroneous or not) that our rights are eroding in the name of Liberty right before our very eyes... and once we realize what is going on... we will be killed for it.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h110-1955

And oh...about concentration camps in the US... (yes they have been here before... I wasnt around for it, but those of Asiatic descent had to suffer royal for what they LOOKED like in the 1940's...)

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/concentration.html

This is our business as the public to question our surroundings. Take away that right, the right to protest, the right to believe what we want to, and we are screwed.

The word "force" can take on many connotations. If someone belongs to a religion, has the freedom to express it, goes out door to door preaching as is their right... can that be taken to mean that those people are "forcing" others to change their beliefs? Yes.

If we dont agree with the state of affairs that is going on in this place, as we have a RIGHT to, and demonstrate within the limits of the law (heh), can that be construed as "force"? Yup.

Ask a couple of people who have already been imprisoned for peaceful protest. If they yell and scream, more power. Is that an excuse to USE FORCE by means of tazing and wrestling people to the ground who arent even lifting a finger....only their VOICES?

Just have a differing point of view and you see how easily we are labeled as "unpatriotic" and words of "how DARE you" come flying across the room.

Yes, our liberties are being taken away. And yes, Freedom ISNT free.

By the way... Those "NewJack Concentration Camps" that Halli and Co. are building cost $400 million dollars... once they are used for their 'original' intent, who are they going to use them on?? Its not like they arent going to try to get their $400 million dollars worth....

Now, pardon me while I figure out whether or not I prefer gas chamber or firing squad ( or even a good ol'fashioned lynchin)---

[void()]

Dear,
I never said that people in those counties shouldn't get to eat.

I just think that we should take care of people in our own neighborhoods/cities and communities first before just blindly giving away money/food/medical supplies/resources to countries where the people who actually need them won't ever get them and the ultra wealthy and the people in their corrupt government do get them. Or giving them away to countries where the people don't trust the food/technology/medical supplies because it's from Western countries. If you want proof of how Western culture/technology and medical practises are seen with distrust in African countries and other countries look at what people believe about HIV/AIDS in many African and Asian countries and cultures.

If you want to make a difference in your own town/city/community you can buy homeless people food or make kits for them that contain blankets, toothpaste/shampoo/mouthwash, clothing, food, vitamins, water, and other things that are badly needed.

I also don't think that we should be endorsing such organizations run by celebrities like One.org since it's a big media hype and these people have more money than everyone on this forum combined and they claim that they're into wanting change and could make big changes if they gave away a fraction of the money that they make per year as a musician/movie star. Also who is to say that people like that should be in charge? They're celebrities!

I have checked out One.org before and to me it seems like a lot of pointless petitions and people just getting together to whine about how nothing's being done and not actually offering any valid solutions or really doing anything.

I checked out the FreeRice.org link too and how do we REALLY know if rice is actually being donated? Why couldn't it just be donated without having people play a game daily or click on correct defintions of words?

Fine sugah. You want it played out how you like so mote it. Now grab your ankles for me, please.

Also who is to say that people like that should be in charge? They're celebrities!

I have not said that anyone should be in charge. I've eluded to what appears to be someone taking action to derive a solution. They are offering an example for all of us. It really comes back to personal choice, and I agree we need to sweep our own porch first. Wonder what would happen if the U.N. mandated the U.S. have a full nuclear disarming? See, we go to other countries and demand they disarm. If it suits the goose, so the gander, no?

And as Fran points out, that cash from our war coffers would be free to help our own and then some. You may have traversed the world a million times over, speak eighty languages, I don't care. You don't know me well enough to cast aspersions over my humble life. Each day I do genuinely put forth an effort to help those in my community, however meager or futile it may seem, I do try. Because I care.

Once you start caring, disrespect for others fades away. You can't be disrespectful and help people, it doesn't work out. People feel the resent, the contempt, disdain. They remember it and it embitters them, well it should.


Why couldn't it just be donated without having people play a game daily or click on correct defintions of words?

As explained in their FAQ, if you'd taken but a moment to read it, they do not sit on a stockpile of rice. Instead the adverts on each page for the definitions earn revenue, which is then carted off to buy the rice, and then sent to humanitarian agencies which disperse the rice. It's about people actually cring and respecting one another. They also have faith in each other. I can not tell you for sure that everything is running peachy, nor can I tell you it isn't.

What I do know is that Bono has went to Africa out of his own pocket, helped build schools, dug wells for fresh water and so on. He has even been knighted for his humanitarian efforts. So, you travel the world and speak three languages do you? That's nice, sugah. What else are you doing to help others?

I give out money to buy food, buy food, turn a blind eye here and there for the sake of letting another person eat, stay warm, whatever is needed. Screw knowing three languages, compassion is universally understood. So too is debasing others and being arrogant, ignorant.

And just so you know beyond a doubt, DD. Sorry, not the slightest interested in you. You can let go of your ankles any time you like. I'd be afraid to be infected with misanthropy by enjoying intimacy with you. That's how I see it and now back to being a gentle stream. You've nothing more to present, if you did it'd be out there already. Enjoy life and may it bring you what you seek.

[TaylorMade]

VD... I don't know DD very well, but I sense he wasn't/isn't interested in you.

And, it seems you're the one casting aspersions on him by assuming he cares less than you, while passively-aggressively putting on the martyr cape.

Please come down off your cross.

He has a point. One African country ignored the advice of the experts and is currently flourishing - - Malawi ignores the experts (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/02/world/africa/02malawi.html?_r=1&em&ex=1196744400&en=8dc6209db5ec0efe&ei=5087%0A&oref=slogin). I recall at one point that Bono scoffed at some of the organic (I am using the term in the sense that it is coming from within the country) solutions some countries were embarking on.


*Taylor*

[wanderingrichard]

And that's the least people could do. Seriously.

EtA: Sometimes I think some people forget there ARE members of the military on this forum (Active duty), and they feel lonely enough among fellow soldiers. . .but some of the posts here, pouring contempt on their occupation because it doesn't fit into their political paradigm. . .geez. :(

*Taylor*

thanx for remembering ......let's hope those who are members see this... and know that not all of us despise them

[darkeyes]

*Sigh* I wish babelfish made a translator for shorthand... I think I can translate it all...


Anyhow, yes it would be nice if everyone got off thier high horses and play nice. Yes, we could all work togther to make this world abit of a nicer place. However, trying to impliment this is purely irrational for one simple reason...some people will just not play nice.

One excellent example was post WW1 politics into the eve of WW2. Basically, England and the US were talking about practically scrapping thier navies. Both nations had fairly gutted armies between the wars. In the 1930's England had a very strong anti-war movement and the US had isolationist policies in place. Due in part to these two Germany was allowed to rebuild her army, airforce, and navy with no rammifications in the face of the Treaty of Versilles. Ultimately, Germany defied the Treaty of Versilles, reoccupied the Rhineland, and invaded Czechoslovakia. Through all of this, everyone wanted to keep the peace in hopes Hitler had enough. Of course, we all know this to be untrue. Germany and the Soviet Union take Poland, and war was finally declaired. Long story short, France falls, Eastern Europe falls first to the Nazis, then to the Soviets, Britian nearly gets invaded and millions of people are killed.

That is just one example, this sort of thing happens on a personal level everyday in each of our countries.

I am not saying become a hawk and fight everything that you don't agree with, but I am saying don't tell everyone to lay down thier arms because someone is always going to keep thiers hidden so that they may take command when everyone has disarmed. Keep armed and keep vigilant, that is all I am saying. However, anyone who pays attention to the history of humankind would know that pacifism just doesn't work.

Oh, I remember in another part of this thread, someone mentioned that critters only kill each other for food. Well, I can tell you... that isn't true by any means. It is not uncommon for creatures to fight or kill each other over territory...sounds familiar eh?

http://www.wolfcountry.net/information/WolfPack.html

Hav neva at ne time sed that makin a peaceful world wud b easy... seems 2 b a bitta a heada steam up that me jus talkin bout 1 country ere..everythin me sed from day 1 is bout everywer... an that makes it several hundred times more difficult... jus that me happens 2 believe in time it will b dun an human beins will make much friendlier an nica peeps than they currently r... its a long slog.. an know fukkin well me aint gonna c it... jus think tho its bout time a teensy weensy bit more effort wos put in 2 it by us all in general an the peeps responsible for sendin otha peeps out 2 kill an die in particular...

Interestin thing bout Hitler an the rise of Nazism is that it neednt eva hav been.. it wos the old world powers of Britain an France that made reparations so severe for Germany afta WW1 that created the conditions for the rise of National Socialism. Woodrow Wilson 2 is credit wos well opposed 2 cripplin reparations cos e cud c that therin lay the seeds of anotha conflict... an boy o boy wos e rite...

Avoidin war aint all bout big powerful militaries..its bout havin the wisdom a foresight 2 make sure the conditions for conflict do not arise, an wen they do bout settlin the dispute well before things get outa hand. Sadly ther aint 2 many world leaders who r 2 clever at this sorta thing, an not 2 many leaders of otha armed groups such as Al Qaeda or ne 1 of a myriad of wot r termed terrorist organisations. An so peeps suffer an suffer badly... the truth gets mistold an simply lost.. deliberately by all sides for ther own reasons.. the run up 2 the second Iraqui war is an exemplary case in point, an the aftermath not much betta if at all.

An lets look at those creatures yas talkin bout who r attackin othas of the same species ova teritory.. wy they do it?? To survive an prosper, as ther instinct tells em 2 do. To eat and hav the territory wich will supply em wiv that food. Its the same thing.. survival.. but human beins tho don work by instinct alone dus they? They hav lil grey cells tween ther earoles wich is meant 2 make em think... nature is a cruel thing... but in all of natures wonders..nowt is more cruel than the thinkin hairless ape.. an it need not b so..

An 2 turn ya statement on its head...the history of mankind is littered wiv ample proof that warfare dusnt work... every war leaves seeds of further conflict... we live with those consequences now an the rise of Islamic protest an terror stems from centuries of warfare wich hav neva achieved the aim they set out 2... much is down 2 the historical events we call the crusades.. much even earlier wiv the Moorish incursion in2 Europe, but much is also down 2 more recent events an problems created by the British an French before an afta WW1 an WW2, an umpteen conflicts fought between the end of the crusades an the rise in British an French influnce in the Islamic world, between the Ottoman Empire an a host of various Christian entities. These mistakes r bein compounded by the British still very substantially, the French 2 a degree, an otha western powers, but even more so by the US as the major military power on the planet an its unquestionin support of Israel an in its ruthless pursuit of oil an a cynical desire 2 fite wars on otha peeps bak yards ratha than its own. War afta war has been an is bein fought an the problems of the middle east r more intractible than eva... gr8 success all those centuries of war huh???

It cud all hav been so different.... it still can..but it will take a lotta vision an a lotta kissin an makin up ana hell of a lotta compromise an real efforts at undastandin each otha... question is...do the warrin parties hav even a hint of that desire??? Any of em??? Ansa is almost certainly no..but then thats wy me dream is summat a long way ahead, an long afta me is pushin up daisies... but the dream remains, an so long as ther r those that dream the dream... ther is hope still for humanity...

[darkeyes]

thanx for remembering ......let's hope those who are members see this... and know that not all of us despise them

Lets get this rite ere Dick... its the military machine we despise..not the squaddie, the sailor, airman, marine or ne 1 else.... they as deservin of our compassion as much as ne 1 else... sum r rite bastards, an join because like sum peeps join the fuzz, they r of a certain mindset.. but ther a lotta rite bastards in civvy street 2...but most r jus peeps who r tootlin along in life doin a job they wanna do an prob believe in... me argument is wiv the principle of the military, its purpose, wiv those who send it 2 war an those who support that war, an will do for as long as me lives woteva me can 2 c that attitudes change an wot lil me can 2 move humanity forward 2 achieve sumthin new.. mos pacifists feel the same.

Hatin wot peeps dus for a livin is 1 thing... hatin them for who they r is quite seperate matta... will letya inta lil secret..in me life...hav only eva hated 1 person.. don matta wy..allya need 2 know is that me did for a long long time... but as time has moved on an memory dimmed a lil realised that the hate me felt made me less of a person, an the poison wos eatin me up.. won say e will eva b me fave person cos e wont.. but will say that now if me met im in the street e wudn get a gobful of loathin an hate. But there gain..me human... an still hav many primitive desires an emotions... who knows wot me reaction wud b if suddenly me wos face 2 face wiv im?? An thats me point 2... thats summat we as a species havta address... an thats wy a peaceful world is millenia away mos prob.. but don hun think we despise servicemen an women...few of us do.. we mite hate the life they have chosen... an we mite protest an kick up a row cosa wot they do as a body... an we mite not support em in ther efforts 2 act as they dus wen ordered 2 do so... but thats an altogetha different thing...

[Falke]

Hav neva at ne time sed that makin a peaceful world wud b easy... seems 2 b a bitta a heada steam up that me jus talkin bout 1 country ere..everythin me sed from day 1 is bout everywer... an that makes it several hundred times more difficult... jus that me happens 2 believe in time it will b dun an human beins will make much friendlier an nica peeps than they currently r... its a long slog.. an know fukkin well me aint gonna c it... jus think tho its bout time a teensy weensy bit more effort wos put in 2 it by us all in general an the peeps responsible for sendin otha peeps out 2 kill an die in particular...

Interestin thing bout Hitler an the rise of Nazism is that it neednt eva hav been.. it wos the old world powers of Britain an France that made reparations so severe for Germany afta WW1 that created the conditions for the rise of National Socialism. Woodrow Wilson 2 is credit wos well opposed 2 cripplin reparations cos e cud c that therin lay the seeds of anotha conflict... an boy o boy wos e rite...

Avoidin war aint all bout big powerful militaries..its bout havin the wisdom a foresight 2 make sure the conditions for conflict do not arise, an wen they do bout settlin the dispute well before things get outa hand. Sadly ther aint 2 many world leaders who r 2 clever at this sorta thing, an not 2 many leaders of otha armed groups such as Al Qaeda or ne 1 of a myriad of wot r termed terrorist organisations. An so peeps suffer an suffer badly... the truth gets mistold an simply lost.. deliberately by all sides for ther own reasons.. the run up 2 the second Iraqui war is an exemplary case in point, an the aftermath not much betta if at all.

An lets look at those creatures yas talkin bout who r attackin othas of the same species ova teritory.. wy they do it?? To survive an prosper, as ther instinct tells em 2 do. To eat and hav the territory wich will supply em wiv that food. Its the same thing.. survival.. but human beins tho don work by instinct alone dus they? They hav lil grey cells tween ther earoles wich is meant 2 make em think... nature is a cruel thing... but in all of natures wonders..nowt is more cruel than the thinkin hairless ape.. an it need not b so..

An 2 turn ya statement on its head...the history of mankind is littered wiv ample proof that warfare dusnt work... every war leaves seeds of further conflict... we live with those consequences now an the rise of Islamic protest an terror stems from centuries of warfare wich hav neva achieved the aim they set out 2... much is down 2 the historical events we call the crusades.. much even earlier wiv the Moorish incursion in2 Europe, but much is also down 2 more recent events an problems created by the British an French before an afta WW1 an WW2, an umpteen conflicts fought between the end of the crusades an the rise in British an French influnce in the Islamic world, between the Ottoman Empire an a host of various Christian entities. These mistakes r bein compounded by the British still very substantially, the French 2 a degree, an otha western powers, but even more so by the US as the major military power on the planet an its unquestionin support of Israel an in its ruthless pursuit of oil an a cynical desire 2 fite wars on otha peeps bak yards ratha than its own. War afta war has been an is bein fought an the problems of the middle east r more intractible than eva... gr8 success all those centuries of war huh???

It cud all hav been so different.... it still can..but it will take a lotta vision an a lotta kissin an makin up ana hell of a lotta compromise an real efforts at undastandin each otha... question is...do the warrin parties hav even a hint of that desire??? Any of em??? Ansa is almost certainly no..but then thats wy me dream is summat a long way ahead, an long afta me is pushin up daisies... but the dream remains, an so long as ther r those that dream the dream... ther is hope still for humanity...

Hey, don't take this as me being a prick or anything. ...I am really having a rought time reading all this. Could you not type in shorthand? Typing this way in a debate would give you a failing grade in any college around here, regardless of how good your side of the debate was.

[darkeyes]

Hey, don't take this as me being a prick or anything. ...I am really having a rought time reading all this. Could you not type in shorthand? Typing this way in a debate would give you a failing grade in any college around here, regardless of how good your side of the debate was.

Jus way me is hun... cud rite in english but everybody else dus afta a fashion.. stik wiv it an ya'll get used 2 it... an me not ere for grades..ere for a laff an gud argy bargy.... me goes 2 uni for grades... but ya'll get used 2 it.... eitha that or ya jus won read owt me rites an thats ur choice... but sumtimes ther r lil gems 2 b gleaned....

An no hun don take ya for a prik... yet.. tee hee:tong:

[Falke]

Jus way me is hun... cud rite in english but everybody else dus afta a fashion.. stik wiv it an ya'll get used 2 it... an me not ere for grades..ere for a laff an gud argy bargy.... me goes 2 uni for grades... but ya'll get used 2 it.... eitha that or ya jus won read owt me rites an thats ur choice... but sumtimes ther r lil gems 2 b gleaned....

An no hun don take ya for a prik... yet.. tee hee:tong:

Thanks :)

I'll pick my way through...see what you have and get back to you.

[vittoria]

"Typing this way in a debate would give you a failing grade in any college around here, regardless of how good your side of the debate was."


love everyone lots (till they piss in my wheaties)...

and no hate engendered...

but she isnt from around here...:rolleyes:

Its taken me a while, but I can 'grok' what she's saying. It just takes a minute :)

[Falke]

"Typing this way in a debate would give you a failing grade in any college around here, regardless of how good your side of the debate was."


love everyone lots (till they piss in my wheaties)...

and no hate engendered...

but she isnt from around here...:rolleyes:

Its taken me a while, but I can 'grok' what she's saying. It just takes a minute :)

Oh, I totally understand. I typically have absolutely no issues figuring out the differences in the English language there as well as here. However, mixing that with typing shorthand Eg: "Wot? I hav 2 b..." takes it make it a pain to read.

[Falke]

Hav neva at ne time sed that makin a peaceful world wud b easy... seems 2 b a bitta a heada steam up that me jus talkin bout 1 country ere..everythin me sed from day 1 is bout everywer... an that makes it several hundred times more difficult... jus that me happens 2 believe in time it will b dun an human beins will make much friendlier an nica peeps than they currently r... its a long slog.. an know fukkin well me aint gonna c it... jus think tho its bout time a teensy weensy bit more effort wos put in 2 it by us all in general an the peeps responsible for sendin otha peeps out 2 kill an die in particular...


Ok, I think I have you...

You know, world peace is a noble idea. Who wouldn't want to have to worry about one's neighbor coming in and taking over every few decades? However, I find the idea to be irrational because people always fight over differences. Just this morning in I was watching a flame war all over sex and because one person wasn't going to have it. Stupid, but that's what we do.


Interestin thing bout Hitler an the rise of Nazism is that it neednt eva hav been.. it wos the old world powers of Britain an France that made reparations so severe for Germany afta WW1 that created the conditions for the rise of National Socialism. Woodrow Wilson 2 is credit wos well opposed 2 cripplin reparations cos e cud c that therin lay the seeds of anotha conflict... an boy o boy wos e rite...

Well, actually it was France that really wanted to punish Germany with the Treaty of Versilles. Yes, Britian was wanting reparations, however the French wanted vengence. This, along with economy that went to severely downhill during and after the loss of WW1. Really, how the Nazis almost immediately after WW1 there was a rise in far right/far left groups all trying to seize power in the fragile Weimar republic. The far left groups wanted to instill a Communist revolution in Germany and the many right wing groups like the NSDAP were formed to conteract this. So, there was alot more to it than what you had said.


Avoidin war aint all bout big powerful militaries..its bout havin the wisdom a foresight 2 make sure the conditions for conflict do not arise, an wen they do bout settlin the dispute well before things get outa hand. Sadly ther aint 2 many world leaders who r 2 clever at this sorta thing, an not 2 many leaders of otha armed groups such as Al Qaeda or ne 1 of a myriad of wot r termed terrorist organisations. An so peeps suffer an suffer badly... the truth gets mistold an simply lost.. deliberately by all sides for ther own reasons.. the run up 2 the second Iraqui war is an exemplary case in point, an the aftermath not much betta if at all.

Problem is, what do you do when conditions are out of other's control? Who is going to contain the mess it creates? As I said before, we can all try to play nice, but in reality this just doesn't happen.


An lets look at those creatures yas talkin bout who r attackin othas of the same species ova teritory.. wy they do it?? To survive an prosper, as ther instinct tells em 2 do. To eat and hav the territory wich will supply em wiv that food. Its the same thing.. survival.. but human beins tho don work by instinct alone dus they? They hav lil grey cells tween ther earoles wich is meant 2 make em think... nature is a cruel thing... but in all of natures wonders..nowt is more cruel than the thinkin hairless ape.. an it need not b so..

My point is we are not the only species out there that wages war on itself.


I will have to hold there for the time being as I need to get suited up to leave.

Though consiter what I had said in my previous posts. While we will not see eye to eye on this topic, you are smart and have a good grasp at history. Consiter ditching that shorthand, it will make your debates much more readable as well as command more respect for yourself!

[Dagni]

I don't like this subject at all, this thread in general, and i really don't understand why people speak so much about war, military, and afterall i don't see anything intresting in military at all.
During WW2 my country were fighting against Soviets and red army could not beat us that easy but it's all behind us now, we rather look to avoid any kind of war or conflict an to solve all problems on normal, peaceful way.

[TaylorMade]

thanx for remembering ......let's hope those who are members see this... and know that not all of us despise them

Damn right. Serving in the military is not always an act of desperation. I've seen the well off as well as the poor in uniform. Some do it out of genuine love of country, no matter who is in charge; others do it out of tradition (my ex (USMC) was third generation military, previous had served in the Army and Navy), and some genuinely want the adventure (I feel sorry for those the most). We have to remember that it DOES take all kinds.

*Taylor*

[darkeyes]

Naaa Zwit hun ya don hav me 'tall... it reely dus amaze me how woteva me sez peeps think me sayin it all shud b happenin now an is possible now.. hav always sed its a long term project..jus bout every pacifist accepts that.. shudn b but the reality is that no 1 alive 2 day or for many centuries yet 2 cum will c the truly peaceful world wer human beins can live at peace wiv themselves..mayb even many millenia if we survive that long...

Butya proves me point Zwit babes... short sightedness, greed an vengeance, a thirst for power all act 2 prevent our world bein more peaceful than it is. An it aint necessary. In lotsa ways we go back 2 a political argument bout the wisdom of havin independent nation states...long as they exist war is always more likely... international union of sum kind an cooperation by all "states" (use this in the term americans will undastand.. an not in the international sense) 2 help an assist each an every human bein maximise is or her potential is an option.. 1 me believes in as it happens, but not gonna open up that debate gain, least not in ideology terms, cos don think it 2 useful ere an detracts from the thing we discussin... but it is feasible in sum form or otha an then mayb we can make reel progress 2 world peace an abolition of armed conflict.

Vis a vis wot happened in Germany yas rite bout the rise of left an right extreme groups... me jus happened 2 settle on the victor for sake of brevity...jus so happened that in the end it wos the extreme rite that won out... but it don change me assertion 1 iota...the conditions for WW2 came outa the insane reparations insisted upon by the allies, an it don matta hoot reely wetha France wos the main protagonist ere..in the end they got ther way supported by Britain an Lloyd George. The fact the Germany cud hardly make ther payments wos a recipe for disaster an ultimately vengeful conflict wich WW2 certainly proved 2 b. Humiliation is a ripe recipe for vengeance..an at Versailles an afta, Germany wos ritually humiliated by the allies. Wetha it wos the rite or left that won, the path 2 war was set at Versailles an its infamous treaty. Had the left won out WW2 wudda been a quite different beast from wot it actually wos, an prob wudda involved the Soviet Union on the side of Germany...now ther a thot forya 2 ponder...scary huh?

Me assertion stands... as thinkin an so called intelligent human beins we shud b able 2 avoid armed conflict an make sensible decisions wich wud keep the peace. We don..we tend 2 do as France an Britain did at Versailles an create the seeds of future conflict..we neva reely seem 2 learn... 2 ansa ya question the trik is not 2 let things get outa control.. course it aint easy...hav neva denied that ... but it is always possible wiv gud will an sum common sense on all sides... in the end me wants 2 see the day wen war aint even considered as an option, an still think that if humanity survives long enuff it will happen... hundreds even thousands of years hence.. but it will happen.. thats me contention an thats me belief an 2 that end me dus me lil bit 2 move humanity forward 2 achieve that. We have made massive strides in the last few millenia as a species....an we will make massive strides in the next few millenia..

For now we show gr8 angst as species bout goin 2 war but in the end we keeps doin it. Not so long bak ther wos no angst an no hand wringin.. a lil fore that ther wos no thot at all bout it save lets crush the tribe down the valley an nick ther huntin grounds. We hav moved along way throughout history an will continue 2 if we survive...but will say gain...wot me reely looks forward 2 is the day wen war aint even on the agenda, an aint even tot bout... that is the reel dream... an that is God knows how far ahead in the future...an will prove 2 b the mos difficult thing of all 2 achieve...

No we aint the only species that makes war...but we r the only species that thinks war... an thats wot makes us the most contemptible species of all..an arguably, the only evil 1....

Hope ya enjoyed ya lil soiree woteva it wos.. if it wos work..soz.... tee hee.. but reely Zwit...ditch Franspeak???? Not on ur Nellie.. occasionally me dus a lil piece in English... yad prob find ya had more 2 disagree wiv if it wos easy....

[darkeyes]

[QUOTE=vittoria;88338
but she isnt from around here...[/QUOTE]

Yad get a bloody shock if me moved in next door 2 ya V... tee hee:tong:

[Falke]

Dark babe, I'm sorry but I just cannot spend another 20 minutes decyphering that. I'll just call it agree to disagree.

[12voltman59]

If you think all goes well with the Army deployed over in Iraq--check out this story that ran in The Army Times:

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/12/bloodbrothers3/

[IanBorthwick]

Naaa Zwit hun ya don hav me 'tall... it reely dus amaze me how woteva me sez peeps think me sayin it all shud b happenin now an is possible now..

I hope you don't include me in that membership, Darkeyes. I am a dreamer and a pacifist, but I am also a realist. The main reason we keep going to war is because of the simple 2 rules of War: Old men start them and young men die in them. Find some way to change these rules and I am sure the death tolls will drop dramatically.

What also upsets me is the way the military persons on this board have been brainwashed into thinking because civilians are against the war we are against them. Like this mindset has been shoved into their harddrives by upper echelons and they are swallowing it hook, line and sinker. It's all part and parcel with maintaining control I suppose, when in reality all we want is for them to be safe and home.

The other thing that bugs me a lot is how we only look to our own casualty list, how many we are losing as if the numbers were just empty digits. Cold equations to victory. Sickening. Someone I know (ex-marine btw) said it wasn't like we had so many dying like in Vietnam, the 3000 were just peanuts. Well guess what you military types...one of your own equated you to Peanuts, something I would never, ever do. Nor would I ever equate all the men, women and children on the other side as "casualties of war".

Until you have a high enough level of empathy that you refuse to dehumanize people, even your own, we can never make a peace a priority. We insulate ourselves to allow us to make cold decisions based on what we want for ourselves with the consequences tossed into the toilet. We'll keep making these barbaric decisions based on primal instincts that will not serve us in a rational future world.

[darkeyes]

Dus luff the dreamer Ian.. the expression peeps is but reference 2 me ole m8 General Populace. There r dreamers of many kinds of wich we r but 2 of 1 kind... an me agrees wiv the rest of wotya says an all... its easy 2 loathe an hav contempt for the job..but for the peeps wich do the job?? Jus a lil more difficult.. they r humans doin a job an very often wot they believe 2 b rite... gets difficult hatin peeps who do that sorta thing..

Am a realist 2 Ian much more than sum wud believe. Is odd how peeps think cos ya has a passion for an ideal, an argue for it, they don think ya can b realistic as well. Its cos we r realistic that we know sum things, sum ideals will take a long time 2 realise. But they don happen cosa sudden change in human thot..they happen cos sum humans hav bein at em 2 change for a long time bacosa ther vision... the dream... an then as time goes by..the penny finally drops in the mindsa more an more peeps.

On the casualty lists yas rite gain..but thats deliberate policy innit? If the true numbas of "enemy" dead wer known, an here me thinkin of civilians principally, tho not exclusively, then mayb Governments wud b a lil more circumspect in how they cnduct war. We only have 2 look at the civilian casualties in both gulf wars, an how both sides played em so differently 2 know the truth of this. One side makin hay, the otha scuttlin for cover 2 repair the damage the sight of dead civilians on out telly screens wos causin.

Dunno bout u,but me finds it relatively easy 2 hav empathy for those involved in a war on both sides. squaddie scared for is life an that of is m8s. Or the civilian bein terrorised by the troops of 1 side or otha outa ther wits. An the troops ere don havta b cruel an heartless... they jus havta b..an seein em march inta ur town or willage creates fears for those who live ther given ther a war goin on... an then ther r those who are on recievin end of air raids.. hav neva been in 1, but dus memba as a lil girl 1st time me heard a litenin storm an jus how scared shitless me wos, an how me jus thot enda world wos cummin. It don take 2 much imagination 2 transform the fears of a lil 3 year ole girl durin a litenin storm inta the reality of the fears of human beins young an old livin through an air raid. In fact wen Bahgdad wos bombed at the start of the 1st Gulf war, me dad reminded me that how me felt durin that storm wos how peeps felt durin that raid.. 50 fold. An watchin New York on 11 Sept wos 1a the sacriest things em has eva seen... how much more so for the poor buggas caught in the middle of it?

The world is a cruel an heartless place in lotsa ways... tragedy is, it jus don havta b quite as bad as it is. That Ian,is wy u an me an peeps like us hav the dream we dus...

[darkeyes]

Dark babe, I'm sorry but I just cannot spend another 20 minutes decyphering that. I'll just call it agree to disagree.

tee hee... 1 way a winnin an argy bargy....:bigrin: Ty Franspeak!! *giggles*

There is a serious point to this Zwitt. If you as an ordinary human being, are unable to take the time to decypher the views and opinions of one person, it is unsurprising that those with more power and authority than either of us are prepared to take the time to attempt to resolve peacefully the great issues of our world because they lack the patience to decypher, and truly attempt to understand the cultural and linguistic nuances of people "far away and of which they know nothing".

[TaylorMade]

tee hee... 1 way a winnin an argy bargy....:bigrin: Ty Franspeak!! *giggles*

There is a serious point to this Zwitt. If you as an ordinary human being, are unable to take the time to decypher the views and opinions of one person, it is unsurprising that those with more power and authority than either of us are prepared to take the time to attempt to resolve peacefully the great issues of our world because they lack the patience to decypher, and truly attempt to understand the cultural and linguistic nuances of people "far away and of which they know nothing".

Difference is, in your case, your dialect is a willful act. . .you can type in standard English, as you've shown here, but instead, choose not to, expecting people to conform to YOUR dialect instead of respecting others limitations and typing in Standard English. . .for someone who wants people in power to listen to them, you're not doing a lot of listening to us here.

*Taylor*

[darkeyes]

Difference is, in your case, your dialect is a willful act. . .you can type in standard English, as you've shown here, but instead, choose not to, expecting people to conform to YOUR dialect instead of respecting others limitations and typing in Standard English. . .for someone who wants people in power to listen to them, you're not doing a lot of listening to us here.

*Taylor*Wilful act Taylor? Mayb.. but me wilful act is an extension of me personality an of who I am.. actually don expect peeps 2 conform in ne way shape or form..don cya tryin Franspeak...ifya did..thats conformin.. wetha peeps decide 2 make the effort 2 read an undastand it is ther affair... no compulsion on em.. fact that me replies shows me listens an digests, analyses an forms me own opinion ..don mean me agrees... 2 things ya shud do.. read dictionary bout wot conformin an listenin means.... so happens me has a copy of Websters as well as the Oxford English.. they both tell me much the same thing as 2 ther meanin... so it aint difference of lingo ere is it?? Wen it cums 2 British an American English..wen we use these 2 words at least ..we mean the same wicheva side of the Atlantic we cum from... well me dus ne way...

[TaylorMade]

Wilful act Taylor? Mayb.. but me wilful act is an extension of me personality an of who I am.. actually don expect peeps 2 conform in ne way shape or form..don cya tryin Franspeak...ifya did..thats conformin.. wetha peeps decide 2 make the effort 2 read an undastand it is ther affair... no compulsion on em.. fact that me replies shows me listens an digests, analyses an forms me own opinion ..don mean me agrees... 2 things ya shud do.. read dictionary bout wot conformin an listenin means.... so happens me has a copy of Websters as well as the Oxford English.. they both tell me much the same thing as 2 ther meanin... so it aint difference of lingo ere is it?? Wen it cums 2 British an American English..wen we use these 2 words at least ..we mean the same wicheva side of the Atlantic we cum from... well me dus ne way...

You're expecting us to go out of our way to understand you, and not bothering to provide an alternative(I.E, changing typing style when someone says they don't understand what you are saying), when you are perfectly capable of communicating in standard English.

Putting things that are just plain rude under the cover of "it's my personality", is a lame excuse.

Night, Dark.

*Taylor*

[darkeyes]

Don demand peeps like it...sum dus sum don... ther choice... as it happens me luffs the english language prob more than ya realise.. but if ya think me rude..thats ok 2... rude??? not reely... rude is summat quite different from ne thin me dus in ere.. but then ya can take issue wiv that 2.. not fussed... can b rude wen me likes..an if me decides 2 b.. honest babes... ya will sure know bout it!!!:tong:

[Falke]

Difference is, in your case, your dialect is a willful act. . .you can type in standard English, as you've shown here, but instead, choose not to, expecting people to conform to YOUR dialect instead of respecting others limitations and typing in Standard English. . .for someone who wants people in power to listen to them, you're not doing a lot of listening to us here.

*Taylor*

Exactly! I would almost rather it in another language as I could babelfish it.

Dark, type as you wish, however don't expect people to read your posts when you type like that.

[wanderingrichard]

I don't like this subject at all, this thread in general, and i really don't understand why people speak so much about war, military, and afterall i don't see anything intresting in military at all.
During WW2 my country were fighting against Soviets and red army could not beat us that easy but it's all behind us now, we rather look to avoid any kind of war or conflict an to solve all problems on normal, peaceful way.

dagni,
if this disturbs you, then please remember the beauty of a free mind is that it does not have to take in what it does not want to.. in this case, move on to something that does appeal to you.. but, yes, lately we have gotten a far bit away from the fact that this is a site for bisexuals, their loved ones and even those who are just curious, to come explore that world, seek new friends, get advice etc.. maybe we've all just forgotten the simple rules mr. drew has set out for us, or, maybe, it's that we've all regressed backwards into our infantility a bit. whatever the case, i think it's time to put this thread to bed and move on to something more akin to the true meaning of this site.

:2cents:
Rich

[DiamondDog]

I don't like this subject at all, this thread in general, and i really don't understand why people speak so much about war, military, and afterall i don't see anything intresting in military at all.
During WW2 my country were fighting against Soviets and red army could not beat us that easy but it's all behind us now, we rather look to avoid any kind of war or conflict an to solve all problems on normal, peaceful way.

So don't post on the thread or read it. Nobody forced you to and if you don't like the topic don't post on it or read it. Simple as that.

There are lots of topics on here that I don't care about so I don't read them or reply to them.

Some of us do happen to enjoy writing/discussion of history, warfare, military technology, and writing about the military.

[the mage]

The major difference between mans WAR and the intra or inter species fights that break out in nature is that when a few monkeys go to war theres a few dead monkeys at the end of the fight, man utterly destroys and burns to the ground the whole fucking forest.

Gawd dam we are fools.
foolish animals with gawd like power.