FREEDOM - Are we really free?

[Doggie_Wood]

How to catch a wild pig

There was a Chemistry professor in a large college that had some exchange students in the class. One day while the class was in the lab the Prof noticed one young man (exchange student) who kept rubbing his back And stretching as if his back hurt.

The professor asked the young man what was the matter. The student told him he had a bullet lodged in his back. He had been shot while fighting communists in his native country who were trying to overthrow his country's government and install a new communist government.

In the midst of his story he looked at the professor and asked a strange question. He asked, ' Do you know how to catch wild pigs?'

The professor thought it was a joke and asked for the punch line. The young man said this was no joke.'You catch wild pigs by finding a suitable place in the woods and putting corn on the ground. The pigs find it and begin to come everyday to eat the free corn. When they are used to coming every day, you put a fence down one side of the place where they are used to coming. When they get used to the fence, they begin to eat the corn again and you put up another side of the fence. They get used to that and start to eat again. You continue until you have all four sides of the fence up with a gate in The last side. The pigs, who are used to the free corn, start to come through the gate to eat, you slam the gate on them and catch the whole herd.

Suddenly the wild pigs have lost their freedom. They run around and around inside the fence, but they are caught. Soon they go back to eating the free corn. They are so used to it that they have forgotten how To forage in the woods for themselves, so they accept their captivity.

The young man then told the professor that is exactly what he sees happening to America . The government keeps pushing us toward Communism/Socialism and keeps spreading the free corn out in the form of programs such as supplemental income, tax credit for unearned income, tobacco subsidies, dairy subsidies, payments not to plant crops (CRP), welfare, medicine, drugs, free medical, etc. While we continually lose our freedoms - just a little at a time.

One should always remember 'There is no such thing as a free Lunch! Also, a politician will never provide a service for you cheaper than you can do it yourself.


'A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to

Take away everything you have.' ........ Thomas Jefferson

[Ninnian]

Dogwood,
too true- How many folks truly Want freedom? Do they want to be able to fall if they fail? Do they want to be able to soar when they achieve? Most really dont.
I was reminded of an interview with a young gal (in her 30's) I saw on TV some time ago, when asked about having individual retirement accounts cam e back with a reply that was approximately...
" Ono!, I would never want to have to make those decisions!"

"Hand me my retirement, my health, my families welfare on a platter- and I'll hand you everything I make and promise you everything my neighbor makes also, becuase I'll vote for 'bread and circuses'..."

Thomas Jefferson is my fave founder. I wonder if he and his circle knew that we'd eventually degrade what they worked so hard to give us?All societies decline... I guess I should be glad ours has lasted as long as it has?
Hard to give up on teh dream of Freedom.

Nin:2cents:

Nin

[blackout]

The biggest problem is not the government, Dogwood. The biggest problem is the people, who are satisfied with "bread and games". Just like the old days of the Roman Empire. And we all know what happened to the Roman Empire.

[MarieDelta]

Here's my take on this:

If we truly wanted freedom, then we wouldn't be involved in society, of any type.

“I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.”
Robert A. Heinlein (American science-fiction Writer)

In a society in which it is a moral offense to be different from your neighbor your only escape is to never let them find out.
Robert A. Heinlein (American science-fiction Writer)

“You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.”
Robert A. Heinlein (American science-fiction Writer)

“Education is the key to unlock the golden door of freedom”
George Washington Carver quotes

“There are only two kinds of freedom in the world; the freedom of the rich and powerful, and the freedom of the artist and the monk who renounces possessions”
Anais Nin (French born American Author of novels and short stories, 1903-1977)

What I am saying is that to be free , to truly be free, requires the courage to take credit/blame for everything that we do.

There aren't that many of us out there who would chuck the safety net and walk the high wire without.

People do want freedom, but only with security. That is why we have society.

A hermit is totally free to do what they pleases. He interacts with none therefore he has no requirement to be civil to any.

Anarchy is an unstable state. At some point someone will realize that all they need to do is seize the power, and then its back to Dictatorship / Monarchy.

A limited state is good too, but where exactly are the limits drawn?

[TaylorMade]

We're more free than we think. But we're not as free as we should be.

*Taylor*

[darkeyes]

Doggie..no..anya knows it!

[shameless agitator]

Here's my take on this:

If we truly wanted freedom, then we wouldn't be involved in society, of any type.

“I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.”
Robert A. Heinlein (American science-fiction Writer)

In a society in which it is a moral offense to be different from your neighbor your only escape is to never let them find out.
Robert A. Heinlein (American science-fiction Writer)

“You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.”
Robert A. Heinlein (American science-fiction Writer)

“Education is the key to unlock the golden door of freedom”
George Washington Carver quotes

“There are only two kinds of freedom in the world; the freedom of the rich and powerful, and the freedom of the artist and the monk who renounces possessions”
Anais Nin (French born American Author of novels and short stories, 1903-1977)

What I am saying is that to be free , to truly be free, requires the courage to take credit/blame for everything that we do.

There aren't that many of us out there who would chuck the safety net and walk the high wire without.

People do want freedom, but only with security. That is why we have society.

A hermit is totally free to do what they pleases. He interacts with none therefore he has no requirement to be civil to any.

Anarchy is an unstable state. At some point someone will realize that all they need to do is seize the power, and then its back to Dictatorship / Monarchy.

A limited state is good too, but where exactly are the limits drawn?I love these quotations Marie! You raise a great point as well. We do want freedom and security. The difficulty becomes finding the balance. For a very simplistic example, my freedom to drive at 180 mph must be sacrificed for the safety & security of those I would endanger by doing so. To go back to the analogy with the pigs, I say we must demand our government put the "corn" out for those who are unable of getting their own so that nobody starves. We must not though, become so complacent, that we forget how to forage or allow them to put the fence up. As it is, they're about to slam the gate, so it's time we tore down the fence.

[hey_there442]

Would it shock people if I said I like Mussolini pre-WWII?
:eek:

[bisexualinsocal]

Would it shock people if I said I like Mussolini pre-WWII?
:eek:

Depends on your age. :tongue:

[alaskacouple]

Biggest problem I have with the 'pig analogy' is that we are not pigs. We are human beings. Pigs in the wild also turn on the weak and consume them as part of their diet - a society that is unwilling to show compassion on it's weakest members soon begins to resemble the pigs in this story ( there have been enough 'societies' throughout history who more resemble animals than humans - I don't want ours to become one.)

I for one pay taxes all year long and then pay some more with my tax return every year. I am willing to do that in order to help those who have had fewer opportunities than I have had in life. Despite the multitude of opportunity that this country offers, the fact remains that many are not able for one reason or another to 'pull themselves up by the boot straps' like the rest of us. Does this mean that we should look down upon them in scorn? Shall we trample them into the ground in our haste to obtain everything our 'freedom' will allow?

And for those who crave freedom so much - it can be had. The regions of Alaska and the Yukon Territories are a place where a person can walk out of the forsaken and cursed societies of man and never be seen again...it is just there for the taking if one wants the freedom bad enough...

[shameless agitator]

I've been tempted. Believe me

[Lorcan]

We are the goverment.

And if i want to put "corn" out i will do so out of my own pockets, and not demand that my neighbor do so also. That was the way we did it in the old days, before the white house took 3 ears of my corn, ate one ear themselves, paid another ear to the committees in charge of doling out corn, and only had one ear left to dole out.

Doling out corn IS the trap.... not the fence.


----------------------------------------------
In an interesting parallel... the approval we get from acting "correctly" in the the eyes of society is another trap. When we're quite young we're fence in by the straight people.

[void()]

Something which bothers me about freedom is its defense. We are told everyone has freedom. Freedom is free for everyone.

Then we fight and kill others to give them freedom. If it were so great, wouldn't they flock to have it? And why fight a person to give them something they already have, much less something that is free?

If everyone has it, why do we suggest enemies try to take it? How can you take something all have and is free? So why fight to attain or defend it?

These are simple questions I consider when thinking about freedom. Well, need to go.

[diB4u]

To answer the question - Are we really free, does the person asking the question mean in the terms of freedom in oneself or freedom in society...

"All religions, arts and sciences are branches of the same tree. All these aspirations are directed toward ennobling man's life, lifting it from the sphere of mere physical existence and leading the individual towards freedom" (Albert Einstein)


There are different ways a person can be "free".

An individual can achieve and maintain a their heart, soul and mind in that respect. A free soul might not be able to be chained down in this modern day world. For some, materialistic goals are indeed a small thing....


In political terms, then freedom is just an oxymoron in itself. How can one be truly free? That would entail free speech, and why free speech CAN be a good thing, there's plenty of negatives connected to the illusion of free speech… Racism, Fascism, Homophobia, Gender phobia, etc, for we are all controlled and governed by institutes that ‘control’ what we say and think.

For example, if the worlds governments decreed it legally and morally for everyone to lets say- Ban all forms of Cheese. The only thing that I would miss would be cheesecake, as I hate cheese. ( in my crazy view cheesecake is not cheese…Don’t ask lol)
See what I’m trying to imply. Just because an organisation, lets call it the law, says what’s right and wrong, doesn’t necessarily make it so.

We all meant to be living in a free word. What is free? Before man kind started to pollute the world water was free, water still is free, but man kind being greedy decided to charge people for using water. I know that water companies purify the water, but a water purifying tablet doesn’t cost that much. See my point?



Are we really free- sadly we are not. In some parts of the world, Religious organisations controls how some think, feel, act and marry.
Even in the mighty west- we still hold true to that old world philosophies.

How long has single sex marriages been allowed? In some countries, some for more than three years, and in other countries a person is still put in prison for not being straight.

So much for freedom?

Thomas Jefferson “No man has a natural right to commit aggression on the equal rights of another, and this is all from which the laws ought to restrain him.”

[12voltman59]

There is really no satisfactory way to answer this question--it has been one of the most fundamental questions that humans have asked since almost the moment we became self-aware beings.

Total freedom is something that can never happen for if each person were to act as a totally free agent---it would be anarchy and chaos--

All we can ever have is some degree of "relative freedom."

In terms of discussing the way things are today--it sounds good in theory that we restrict government, but in the reality of today---that is simply not possible to reduce government---the only way I would accept a substantive reduction in the power and scope of government would be for us to totally dismantle all of the modern, mega-multinational, extra-national corporations----as linguist and social commentator Noam Chomsky has long argued---government may be an inperfect option--but if government retains some degree of seperation from the corporate interests---it is the only countervailing mechanism that "the people" have to blunt the awesome power of those big companies----the problem really comes when there is an alignment of the interests of big government and big business---something we do have today----

Most people are going to be crushed under the feet of both big entities----and the chance access to nearly any measure of "freedom" for most people gets lost when we have this aggregation of power in the big state and big business---

[wolfcamp]

It sounds like you are a slave to your job and to your money, so how can you claim to be free? If you want to be really free, then quit your job, give away your possessions and go do something that makes you truly happy.

[wolfcamp]

Suddenly the wild pigs have lost their freedom. They run around and around inside the fence, but they are caught. Soon they go back to eating the free corn. They are so used to it that they have forgotten how To forage in the woods for themselves, so they accept their captivity.



I was rereading this and it suddenly struck me that this sounds exactly like the beginnings of civilization when people gave up a hunting and gathering lifestyle in favor of a sedentary, agricultural lifestyle complete with it's priests and chieftans.

[Ninnian]

[Thomas Jefferson “No man has a natural right to commit aggression on the equal rights of another, and this is all from which the laws ought to restrain him"
Merge what Lorcan mentioned , and this quote form TJefferson, and you have my thoughts on freedom. Allow me to decide how it is I can help thos ewho are having troubles. What I deplore is teh gov't telling me I *must* (as shameless would have it) give of my corn, and to Not do so means putting a gun to my head. The Govt has teh right to tax me for certain programs for which teh Constitution allows : road works, schools, national defense..etc.
It' s bad enough that they force me to share my corn in any way they presume , but they are wretchedly bad at doing teh sharing well. Frankly there sdang few things govt does well. Private (say: Free except fo rthos elimitations thier members or boards constrain them to) orginizations are always more efficient and less wasteful.

yeah- Jefferson had it right. I dont think that by chosing to be IN a society we choose to be bound away from freedom. eh- I shoudl probably stop, Im not in my best "think" mode...

Nin

[shameless agitator]

Thomas Jefferson “No man has a natural right to commit aggression on the equal rights of another, and this is all from which the laws ought to restrain him.”I love this quotation!

It sounds like you are a slave to your job and to your money, so how can you claim to be free? If you want to be really free, then quit your job, give away your possessions and go do something that makes you truly happy.To this I will add another quotation "The more things a man owns, the more the things own him"~H.D. Thoreau

[FalconAngel]

The price of freedom is vigilance, and we have not been so vigilant as we should have been.
Mostly because the "free corn" is delivered to us on the back of a lie.

"Those who surrender essential liberties to insure temporary security, deserve neither freedom nor security" -- Benjamin Franklin

[alaskacouple]

There is really no satisfactory way to answer this question--it has been one of the most fundamental questions that humans have asked since almost the moment we became self-aware beings.

Total freedom is something that can never happen for if each person were to act as a totally free agent---it would be anarchy and chaos--

All we can ever have is some degree of "relative freedom."

In terms of discussing the way things are today--it sounds good in theory that we restrict government, but in the reality of today---that is simply not possible to reduce government---the only way I would accept a substantive reduction in the power and scope of government would be for us to totally dismantle all of the modern, mega-multinational, extra-national corporations----as linguist and social commentator Noam Chomsky has long argued---government may be an inperfect option--but if government retains some degree of seperation from the corporate interests---it is the only countervailing mechanism that "the people" have to blunt the awesome power of those big companies----the problem really comes when there is an alignment of the interests of big government and big business---something we do have today----

Most people are going to be crushed under the feet of both big entities----and the chance access to nearly any measure of "freedom" for most people gets lost when we have this aggregation of power in the big state and big business---
I wish I could have said it that well!

But, I would like to ask those who desire more freedom through less corn; Just what 'corn' would you propose be removed from our 'pig pen?

Would it be; Social Security? Medicare? Medicaid? Firemen? Police? Food Stamps? Housing for the poor? Education Grants?.... What? I am really curious as to what we can take away and end up with a better society???

[Not2str8]

How to catch a wild pig

There was a Chemistry professor in a large college that had some exchange students in the class. One day while the class was in the lab the Prof noticed one young man (exchange student) who kept rubbing his back And stretching as if his back hurt.

The professor asked the young man what was the matter. The student told him he had a bullet lodged in his back. He had been shot while fighting communists in his native country who were trying to overthrow his country's government and install a new communist government.

In the midst of his story he looked at the professor and asked a strange question. He asked, ' Do you know how to catch wild pigs?'

The professor thought it was a joke and asked for the punch line. The young man said this was no joke.'You catch wild pigs by finding a suitable place in the woods and putting corn on the ground. The pigs find it and begin to come everyday to eat the free corn. When they are used to coming every day, you put a fence down one side of the place where they are used to coming. When they get used to the fence, they begin to eat the corn again and you put up another side of the fence. They get used to that and start to eat again. You continue until you have all four sides of the fence up with a gate in The last side. The pigs, who are used to the free corn, start to come through the gate to eat, you slam the gate on them and catch the whole herd.

Suddenly the wild pigs have lost their freedom. They run around and around inside the fence, but they are caught. Soon they go back to eating the free corn. They are so used to it that they have forgotten how To forage in the woods for themselves, so they accept their captivity.

The young man then told the professor that is exactly what he sees happening to America . The government keeps pushing us toward Communism/Socialism and keeps spreading the free corn out in the form of programs such as supplemental income, tax credit for unearned income, tobacco subsidies, dairy subsidies, payments not to plant crops (CRP), welfare, medicine, drugs, free medical, etc. While we continually lose our freedoms - just a little at a time.

One should always remember 'There is no such thing as a free Lunch! Also, a politician will never provide a service for you cheaper than you can do it yourself.


'A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to

Take away everything you have.' ........ Thomas Jefferson

Dogwood, this little story reminds me of the types of stories told by members of the Ayn Rand Institute. (The Objectivists) It sounds great, but the argument is the classic "straw-man." If you tally up every dime of so-called "welfare" that is paid to individuals in this country, and compare it to the amount of money that the government gives to corporations, you'll see that the figures aren't even in the same universe. But the very people who benefit from this system of corporate welfare are the ones selling us the lie that we are becoming "socialist." That is laughable. We are one of the least socialist societies on the planet. But if they can keep us sheep focused on the black welfare mother who drives a Cadillac, or those "dirty Mexicans sneakin' across the border stealin' American jobs", then we're alot less likely to see our government actually subsidizing Exxon/Mobil, the company who holds the record for the largest quarterly profit of any company in the history of the world. Yet they came to our government (us) with their hand out, and we filled it for them. Filled it with your's and my money. Our government even financially rewards companies who close up shop here in America, lay off all their employees, and move offshore.
Dog, with all due respect, what we need to fear is not "socialism". If anything, the credo in this country is flat out unregulated, balls-to-the-wall, rapacious Capitalism. What has crept into our lives without most of us even noticing it's arrival is plain old "fascism". The definition of fascism is the marriage of state and corporate interests, most often with a heavy dose of nationalism. Sound familiar ? (Benito Mussolini's definition, not mine, and he should know.)
If so-called free market, laissez-faire capitalism is allowed to run amok, (and it is ) the inevitable result is exactly what we are seeing now....A massive redistribution of wealth to a tiny minority of the elite, at the expense of the lower and middle classes. Whenever this economic path is followed, the result is always the same, and it always will be, due to the very human emotion of greed. Unrestrained capitalism will eat everything and everyone in it's path. Democracy cannot survive in that environment. The role of government is to be the regulatory "brake" on unrestrained capitalism...to ensure that a company's profits are not more important than the well-being of
society. In other words....balance. And we are SO far out of balance now, it ain't funny. Most of the industrialized world has passed us by in categories we used to dominate. (Education, standard of living, health-insurance, even life-expectancy.) Because we have forgotten what made us the greatest country on Earth, after WW2. We had a government that understood how vitally important a thriving middle class is to a Democracy, and enacted policies to ensure it's growth. We have been systematically destroying that since 1980, and they have sold us the lie that it's for our own good ! We are quickly becoming a two-tiered society. That way lies oligarchy and feudalism, not democracy. Brother, count me out.
So keep focused on the real enemy, not the straw men our true enemies want you to think are your enemy.

[wanderingrichard]

I was rereading this and it suddenly struck me that this sounds exactly like the beginnings of civilization when people gave up a hunting and gathering lifestyle in favor of a sedentary, agricultural lifestyle complete with it's priests and chieftans.

wherein began the coruption of man and the downfall of mankind. isn't there a famous saying " those whome the gods make small they first make great"?

[HighEnergy]

Not2Str8, you are exactly right. The loss of the middle class is a frightening thing and happening more and more everyday. John Dean's new book says if we let the Republicans in for another term, their take over and the loss of the middle class they started with Nixon and Reagan will be complete. Uh oh, is Cheney watching us?

[12voltman59]

Not2str8--I agree with ya totally---that the conservatives always bring up things like the "strawman" arguments regarding the government giving money to people via things like social security, medicaid/meidcare, WIC, food stamps, etc.

The reality is that the transfer of the nation's wealth via things like no bid contracts and regular contracts to companies like Lockheed, Martin-Marietta, Halliburton, Blackwater, and favorable tax breaks to the oil companies, pharmaceutical companies, etc. results in a transfer of wealth to these entities that far exceeds that transfer of the nation's wealth to those at the lower end of the economic ladder via social services.

When the federal government did the original GI Bill at the end of World War II for the returning vets--it vastly expanded the wealth of this nation to a level unprecendented and not met since---I would like to see our goverment do such a program in each suceeding generation.

Those direct payments to the average Joe and Jane American citizen made the middle class what it became---people who would never have had a chance to go to college, buy a house, start businesses or get good jobs and all of those things that became part and parcel of "the American Dream" was a damn good thing.

Many of the vets of WWII created some of the largest, iconic companies in the nation like NIKE Shoes thanks to the education they received basically gratis and also parlayed some of what they recieved into seed money to start their own busineses. Of course, I guess it was not really totally gratis since they did go and serve the nation in its time of need in WWII.

They should do something like that now for our times instead of this rather modest "stimulus package" that Congress formulated and Bush signed in recent days.

The government made back in spades, the outlay of money they provided in the original GI Bill program. It made America the greatest economic and military power in the later portion of the 20th Century and this was truly a case of "a rising tide raises all boats."

It is one of those ironies--that in many cases--those "self-made men" who wax nostalgic about "pulling yourself up by your bootstraps" and who got so pissed off about all of those "damn welfare freeloaders!" ---were the recipients of goverment largesse. They often benefit today since their companies recieve nice tax breaks and they also--being at the top of the economic ladder---benefitted by Bush's tax cuts.

Hardly anyone in this nation is pure and clean as the driven snow in some fashion, because at some point nearly every American, especially many of the ultra-rich, have been "getting something for nothing" from the evil government!!!!

I am so damn sick and tired of rich white guys bitching about having to pay so much in taxes and how "nobody gave me nothin'" and all of that shit!!!! That is just pure hogwash!!! I do not know whatever happened to the sense that used to be prevalent in society--"noblese oblige" or those who have much owe much--now it seems those at the top of the ladder---while they many times don't believe in Darwin's Origin of Species Theory--they certainly believe in a form of "social Darwinism."

All this crap about the "free market" is yet another conservative myth---there is no such thing as a totally free market and all those who worship at that altar, would really not like it if there were such a thing!!!

As I have said before---when it comes to Congress appropriating obscene amounts of money for "defense" purposes---it's a blank check---do anything that really helps people and the response is: "We don't have that kind of money--what do you think we are---made of money???"

Congress has no problem---irrespective of party or where one sits on the political spectrum---in throwing money at the defense contractors---I think that has to do with the fact that for each Congressperson and Senator----there are something like four defense industry lobbyists and another six each from the oil and pharmacuetical industries just to name a few!!!!! And they all lavish money, one way or the other, on folks in Congress---Democrat and Republican alike.

It really is all about "show me the money"---the big corporations can basically afford to buy what they want while the rest of us have no one to speak for us---and this is not going to change since our courts did a very obscene thing sometime back--they have ruled that money equals "free speech."

Nothing about that in the Constitution, ehhh there Robert Bork?? I hear ya talk about being a "strict constructionist" when it comes to "rights" like abortion, etc. that you want to see gone, but you don't say one word about "setting back the clock" on striking rulings like that which give the corporatists a great deal of power never "clearly enunciated by the Founding Fathers in the founding documents of the nation!"

The Constitution and Declaration of Indpendence say nothing about "they the EXXONMobils, GMs, Halliburtons, etc,--they talk about "We the People."

It does seem that the current elites and "powers-that-be" seem to have a very real antipathy for the middle class and seem hell bent on destroying the middle class in not just the US, but in the other democratic nations as well.

Sorry for the rant---but I do get sick of this knee jerk defense of the elite types and their crap.

What does get me at how so many people of modest means so support and swallow the crap that gets put out on the right--that anyone who has less than a few hundred million in the bank can support the policies of the modern Republican party I simply cannot fathom---because to those who are at the top of that party---you are not even on the radar and count to them, except in that they want to bambozzle you to support them, unless you have at least this much---in 2007--you had to have something like $1.4 billion in wealth to make the Forbes 400 richest list--a new record.

I like what I heard one commentator say recently about this phenomeon---he called it "living poor and voting rich"

I know the Dems have their own problems and are certainly not perfect by any stretch of the imagination--in keeping with my view that I try to take reality into consideration----I have to say that. Not like so many Republican apologists who continue to hold to the notions put forth by their leaders irrespective of evidence to the contrary.

My little scenario I like to use to bring this point home--its like let's say we have a black car up on the stage in a meeting hall and this guy gets up and says---"The car is red! You may think it is black--but it is actually RED!!!" Everyone then goes---"now that you think about it---that car is red!!" And so--the convential wisdom is ---"THE CAR IS RED!!!!"

A new person comes in the hall --- he is asked--"what color is the car?" "The car is black" is his answer. Everyone who was in the room originally then say in unison--"No the car is red--the car is red!!! Got it!!???" They go back and forth till the person either finally says "yeah--you guys are right--the car is red!" or he goes off and goes crazy since he can't get anyone to acknowledge that the car is in fact--BLACK and NOT RED!!!

Sort of like---WE HAVE WON THE WAR IN IRAQ!!

One thing that is true when you look at the times when Dems have controlled the White House--the stock market and economy both do far better than when under the control of the Republicans, strangely enough---so much for Dems being so damn socialistic---for Christ sake---Goldman Sachs and the rest of the big Wall Street money firms "are all in" in terms of money and other support for both Hillary Rodham Clinton and Barak Obama---hardly socialists, those big financial firms!!!

The Dems are not perfect, but I think that in general--they tend to implement policies that actually are in the best interests of the "commonweal" either by design or accident---

I wish I did have another viable choice in terms of party choice--but the Dems are the only game in town for me----and thanks to eight years of a disasterous Bush reign, the alignment of Republicanism with fundamentalist, evangelicalism and the like--the chance of me supporting any Republican--at least for national office is pretty much nil for the foreseeable future----

I am all in for either Barak or Billiary....

Sorry for the major ramble-- and yes--I may be crazy but "If I weren't crazy--I would most certainly go insane!!!" (thanks Jimmy-- for another great lyrics line that I sorta changed up!!)

[vittoria]

Theres a picture perfect "Straw Man" arguement!!! Check this out if you want to ease your collective troubled minds :)

V



http://youtube.com/watch?v=3I7c3SX0zFE (http://youtube.com/watch?v=3I7c3SX0zFE)



lyrics :

You can't win
You can't break even
And you can't get out of the game
People keep sayin'
Things are gonna change
But they look just like
You're stayin' the same

You get in
way over your head
And you only got yourself to blame
You can't win Child
(You can't win Child)
You can't break even
And you can't get out of the game

You can't win
The world keeps movin'
And you're standin' far behind
People keep sayin'
Things'll get better
(Just to ease your state of mind)
(So you lean back, and you smoke that smoke)
(And you drink your glass of wine)
So you can't win, Child
You can't break even
And you can't get out of the game

You can't win, you can't win no way
If your story stays the same
(You ain't winnin'),
No, no,
(But it's nice to see you)
(I'm awfully glad you came)
(Better cool it 'cause
It ain't about losin')
And the world has got no shame
You can't win, Child
You can't break even
You can't get out of the game

You can't win
You can't break even
Ain't the way it's supposed to be
(You'll be spendin'),
No, no
(Your little bit of money)
While someone else rides for free
(Learn your lesson), ooh,
(Refuel your mind)
(Before some turkey blows out your flame)

You can't win, Child. No!
You can't win
You can't win, Child. No!
You can't win
You can't win, Child. No!
You can't win
You can't win, Child. No!
You can't win

You can't win, Child
You can't break even
And you can't get out of the game
You can't get out of the game

[Dianna219]

Volt, what, how would you know what combat is?????????????? Was it that little thing in the Carribean, the medical Students et all, haha And, the rest, all ranting and raving about "Bush" geez, do you think Kerry would have done better, remember, he's the guy the wrote himself in for a Purple Heart, so much for the integrity of the Navy In reality, I forget who poste dthis crap"I made do with what we had, the best of it"give me a break, the Military always has the "best" available"shit" , another "Remington Raider" scuse me while I Barf. def: Remington Raider: a person, behind the lines, always in a support position, (Clerk typist) exclude, Docs, RN's, Medics. Only 10% of troops have and always will, see combat. Come on, credentials, please, all you War Hero's????????????????????????

[12voltman59]

Volt, what, how would you know what combat is?????????????? Was it that little thing in the Carribean, the medical Students et all, haha And, the rest, all ranting and raving about "Bush" geez, do you think Kerry would have done better, remember, he's the guy the wrote himself in for a Purple Heart, so much for the integrity of the Navy In reality, I forget who poste dthis crap"I made do with what we had, the best of it"give me a break, the Military always has the "best" available"shit" , another "Remington Raider" scuse me while I Barf. def: Remington Raider: a person, behind the lines, always in a support position, (Clerk typist) exclude, Docs, RN's, Medics. Only 10% of troops have and always will, see combat. Come on, credentials, please, all you War Hero's????????????????????????

Well Bush did not do much in the military and Rummy served in the miltary yet he never saw battle and he went on to be Secretary of Defense--several times---I went to Grenada back in the aftermath of the invasion---and yeah-- I never saw battle as typically defined but several of the cutters in the course of my time in service I was on ---had to chase and fire on drug runners--things we had to do in the Coast Guard as part of our misson---I also went on armed boarding parties to help secure and make arrests of the crews of boats smuggling drugs and of Haitians and Cubans attempting to make their way illegally into the US--I was on CG cutters right in the front lines of "the war on drugs" thanks to being assigned on cutters based out of Coast Guard Station Key West and Coast Guard Base Miami Beach. I was a deckie when I was a Seaman which meant I had to do guard duty on boarding parties and later as a PO--my rate was as ship's cook--but since CG crews are small--we have to do a great number of things and as cook--when General Quarters/Battlestations are called--as cook----I manned one of the forward 50 cal machine guns!!!--

Don't tell me I was a paper pushing "rear echelon fuck" type as they said in Vietnam---no way!!!!

I also later served as a probation officer/parole office in both Florida and Ohio--as such I made arrests numerous times both in the field and in our offices--I went into crack houses behind Sheriff and Police Department SWAT teams to make arrests of absconding felons so I have done my duty for God and country---when in Florida---I finished my time with the Florida Department of Corrections, Division of Probation and Parole as a Community Control Officer with some Electronic Monitoring offenders--I had to be out at all times of the day and night and had to very often go out on Friday and Saturday nights into the heart of project housing where the neighbors of my "clients" were well into raging with their cocaine and other drugs---that will curdle your blood--we were armed and wore body armour--we went in there when the guys from in radio cars from the Brevard Sheriff's Office and the local PDs would not go without a mass response of patrol units with reds and blues running---

I guess that what you are saying is that since I did not have battle experience like ground troops do--- I somehow don't have the ability to make comment on war????

That is BS "D"

Those days are over for me-but I think that I am more than well qualified to make comment on the things that I do!!!!

I was no war hero---but I did my duty both in the military and as a civilian law enforcement officer.

[Dianna219]

Volt, no, I wasn't saying that at all, being in combat is not some sort of "wonderfull" experience, quite the contrary. However you serve your country, here, there, anywhere, weather in the military, law enforcement, peace corps etc. is not an issue. This endless Bush bashing is getting very very old, btw the type of aircraft he was flying wouldn't and couldn't be deployed because it was a piece of junk, so, i guess, someone with wisdom in the pentagon, haha, decided not to condemn these pilots to death. Iraq has been a screwed up mess since the beginning, no arguement, but, which one hasn't, you adjust as you go. What irritates me is the endless bitching of those who gladly accepted the $25-40k to enlist, find themselves in some "cushy"job, shit gets worse, and then, wtf what a rifle?, but, i didn't plan on this Sergeant, too bad, grab your rifle and move out!!!!!!!!!!!Everyone seems to be greatly pissed off, over the events of the last 4 years, oh, yes, remember, the 1st four were, rah rah, go and show those little ragheads. Not an issue. I apologize if you took it personally, was not intented!!!!!

But to the point, a the lil piggies broke off into groups and decided that they neededa leader, and, they reated this cumbersome, self serving system to remind the rest of the piggies how superior, both intellectually and factually terrific they are and to re-elect them to be the head pig. Maybe we should be concentrating our efforts on finding a way to neuter the "Super Delegates" and dissolve the "Electoral College" then i guess the voice of the people would , be truly heard!!!

Again, I didn't intend to insult anyone, iof you took it that way, apology!!!!!!!!