The Republicans: The real reason that we are having this financial meltdown

[12voltman59]

Typical of Republcian revisionist history--- the reason we are having this current financial meltdown is not because of the greed of financial players---it's thanks to the poor (read blacks and other minorities) who wanted to buy homes and coulldn't afford them---and the Dems who helped them do that!!

Just one example of an article discussing this:

http://www.newsmax.com/insidecover/frank_housing_attacks_/2008/10/07/138096.html?s=al&promo_code=6C84-1


Of course---as the article and Barney Frank noted----the Republicans had control of the presidency and the House and Senate through most of that time and they didn't get rid of this supposedly evil program (the Community Reinvestment Program) and reinstitute the tight controls----never mind that Republicans vowed to and bragged about----pretty much letting the financial people do any damn thing they so pleased----irrespective of the consequences----

[azirish]

You're relying too much on, ABC, CBS, MSNBC, CNN (Cresent News Network), NY Times, Al-Jeeyzra, Bost Globe etc, etc, etc, do some more research. This time google "ACORN", "George Soros", "Barney Frank"...please educate yourself. Remember, for not approving loans for "non-whites" who can't afford the payments and or don't have high enough credit is "racist". Asking anything of Barry Sortero "Aka Barack Obama" is racist. Anything said against "Rev" Wright is "racist. Anything said in disagreement with the following...
"Rev" Jesse Jackson
"Rev" Al Sharpton
"Rev" Wright
Barack Obama
Franklin Raines, former CEO of Fannie Mae, now a top advisor to Obama



Remember all "whites" are racist...to quote the "great" Barack Obama from his book "The Audacity of Hope: Thoughts on Reclaiming the American Dream (Vintage)" "White folks greed, runs a world in need". You know the line I'm sure. I hope he does good for "typical white" women tonight.
If you don't want political responses, don't keep posting political garbage.



Typical of Republcian revisionist history--- the reason we are having this current financial meltdown is not because of the greed of financial players---it's thanks to the poor (read blacks and other minorities) who wanted to buy homes and coulldn't afford them---and the Dems who helped them do that!!

Just one example of an article discussing this:

http://www.newsmax.com/insidecover/frank_housing_attacks_/2008/10/07/138096.html?s=al&promo_code=6C84-1


Of course---as the article and Barney Frank noted----the Republicans had control of the presidency and the House and Senate through most of that time and they didn't get rid of this supposedly evil program (the Community Reinvestment Program) and reinstitute the tight controls----never mind that Republicans vowed to and bragged about----pretty much letting the financial people do any damn thing they so pleased----irrespective of the consequences----

[darkeyes]

You're relying too much on, ABC, CBS, MSNBC, CNN (Cresent News Network), NY Times, Al-Jeeyzra, Bost Globe etc, etc, etc, do some more research. This time google "ACORN", "George Soros", "Barney Frank"...please educate yourself. Remember, for not approving loans for "non-whites" who can't afford the payments and or don't have high enough credit is "racist". Asking anything of Barry Sortero "Aka Barack Obama" is racist. Anything said against "Rev" Wright is "racist. Anything said in disagreement with the following...
"Rev" Jesse Jackson
"Rev" Al Sharpton
"Rev" Wright
Barack Obama
Franklin Raines, former CEO of Fannie Mae, now a top advisor to Obama



Remember all "whites" are racist...to quote the "great" Barack Obama from his book "The Audacity of Hope: Thoughts on Reclaiming the American Dream (Vintage)" "White folks greed, runs a world in need". You know the line I'm sure. I hope he does good for "typical white" women tonight.
If you don't want political responses, don't keep posting political garbage.

God..me jus wets mesel wen me reads eloquence from wereva it cums....:bigrin:

[chuck1124]

Azirish, you do seem quite well informed, and of course, Volt seems to get his information from Moveon.org. The fact of the matter is that both Republicans and Democrats seem to be at fault just as much as the "greedy Wall Street types". More Democrats, but, also many Republicans have gotten huge campaign funds from Wall Street. That is why my policy is not to vote for any imcumbent, regardless of party.

By the way, contrary to the Obama camp, any economist will tell you, you cannot tax your way out of a recession.

[darkeyes]

By the way, contrary to the Obama camp, any economist will tell you, you cannot tax your way out of a recession.

Not ne..sum..depends wotya do wiv the dosh collected... now that ne economist knos...or at least ne wiv haff a brain..tho not 2 sure ther r many around...;)

[VA001]

What about the people who signed their names and bought the loans?????

You hear plenty of blame to go around, but what you don't hear much of is the people who signed their names to loans that couldn't afford.

Personal responsibility, people, you sign your name to something and buy what you can't afford... it's on you.

I pay my bills and live within my means, but now I have to bail out those folks who bought into mortgages they couldn't afford.

No sympathy here for those stuck with their homes...

[TaylorMade]

Azirish, you do seem quite well informed, and of course, Volt seems to get his information from Moveon.org. The fact of the matter is that both Republicans and Democrats seem to be at fault just as much as the "greedy Wall Street types". More Democrats, but, also many Republicans have gotten huge campaign funds from Wall Street. That is why my policy is not to vote for any imcumbent, regardless of party.

By the way, contrary to the Obama camp, any economist will tell you, you cannot tax your way out of a recession.

That's about the size of it. And- - -well, a libertarian put this up on their site.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RZVw3no2A4



*Taylor*

[12voltman59]

I sure as fuck don't get my news from FAUX NEWS!!! or RUsh or any of that crowd!!


I do agree--that the Dems do have just as much blood on their hands in relation to this issue as do the Repubs----I say a POX on both of their houses--but and I do admit that the Dems have been hapless in so many cases--but the Repbulicans are sure as much to blame as are the Dems---and really--every damn last one of us is responsible for this---we elected all of these bozos!!

I do admit the Dems are pretty well fucked up--but I sure as heck don't think the Republicans are some kiind of bastions of moral, economic or other virtues--and I don't buy their revisionist history---if you look at it--the Dems do share some blame in that they along with the Republicans did go along with lessening the rules that the Wall Street money people operate by--and they did push to some degree to lax the rules to help some in their constiuencies---but the worst of this problem was not caused by poor black folks--it was rich, greedy so and so's who worked in the financial houses who lived high on the hog who are mostly responsible for this problem--to blame poor black folks is RACIST and IS TOTAL BULLSHIT!!!!! They did not have control over the money spigot-and if the wall streeters were operating rationally and not motivated by greed--they would never have underwritten those loans--the people of all races and such who were bad credit risks were not holding guns to the heads of the money people--the money people were riding a gravy train and couldn't write millions of these loans fast enough!!!!!

[azirish]

No, No, No....The messiah, will save us!!! (Obama) and the world!!! The islamist will love us!!!...the blind will see!!!...the crippled will walk again!!! isn't that what he promised!!! Only if the "messiah" is elected. The world will "cool" and not warm!!!....the seas will rise again...We will prove we are not racist or bigoted..its that what you mean? You, don't ever, tell us you hate "the dems" only hate the republicans!!!...You're a lair and a charleton. You only "choose" what you want, never anything to the contrary. You haven't fooled me. They are all against us....the mesiah will not save you or me or anyone. Wake up, he is just as corrupt as any politician...if you take nothing from me take this as reality.




I sure as fuck don't get my news from FAUX NEWS!!! or RUsh or any of that crowd!!


I do agree--that the Dems do have just as much blood on their hands in relation to this issue as do the Repubs----I say a POX on both of their houses--but and I do admit that the Dems have been hapless in so many cases--but the Repbulicans are sure as much to blame as are the Dems---and really--every damn last one of us is responsible for this---we elected all of these bozos!!

I do admit the Dems are pretty well fucked up--but I sure as heck don't think the Republicans are some kiind of bastions of moral, economic or other virtues--and I don't buy their revisionist history---if you look at it--the Dems do share some blame in that they along with the Republicans did go along with lessening the rules that the Wall Street money people operate by--and they did push to some degree to lax the rules to help some in their constiuencies---but the worst of this problem was not caused by poor black folks--it was rich, greedy so and so's who worked in the financial houses who lived high on the hog who are mostly responsible for this problem--to blame poor black folks is RACIST and IS TOTAL BULLSHIT!!!!!

[TaylorMade]

I sure as fuck don't get my news from FAUX NEWS!!! or RUsh or any of that crowd!!


I do agree--that the Dems do have just as much blood on their hands in relation to this issue as do the Repubs----I say a POX on both of their houses--but and I do admit that the Dems have been hapless in so many cases--but the Repbulicans are sure as much to blame as are the Dems---and really--every damn last one of us is responsible for this---we elected all of these bozos!!

I do admit the Dems are pretty well fucked up--but I sure as heck don't think the Republicans are some kiind of bastions of moral, economic or other virtues--and I don't buy their revisionist history---if you look at it--the Dems do share some blame in that they along with the Republicans did go along with lessening the rules that the Wall Street money people operate by--and they did push to some degree to lax the rules to help some in their constiuencies---but the worst of this problem was not caused by poor black folks--it was rich, greedy so and so's who worked in the financial houses who lived high on the hog who are mostly responsible for this problem--to blame poor black folks is RACIST and IS TOTAL BULLSHIT!!!!! They did not have control over the money spigot-and if the wall streeters were operating rationally and not motivated by greed--they would never have underwritten those loans--the people of all races and such who were bad credit risks were not holding guns to the heads of the money people--the money people were riding a gravy train and couldn't write millions of these loans fast enough!!!!!

You say, a pox on both their houses, but blame only one group, really. Just be honest, Volty. Plenty of people don't like the GOP and make no games of it. To give the token "A pox on both their houses" doesn't ring sincere when one group gets the brunt of your ire.

*Taylor*

[AFTER9]

Why does it always have to be about a two party system? My mind is open to other ideas also. Granted I know they won't win the presidency, still knowing that I'm making a statement is worth my vote.
I was pleased to see someone mention the Libertarians.Not that I'm for them myself but open to third parties.
Alot of people discount Ralph Nader unleashing him on some of those Subprime mortgage broker types may be interesting.
Also I like some of the ideas The Greens have about small scale farming and livable local communities.

[TaylorMade]

Why does it always have to be about a two party system? My mind is open to other ideas also. Granted I know they won't win the presidency, still knowing that I'm making a statement is worth my vote.
I was pleased to see someone mention the Libertarians.Not that I'm for them myself but open to third parties.
Alot of people discount Ralph Nader unleashing him on some of those Subprime mortgage broker types may be interesting.
Also I like some of the ideas The Greens have about small scale farming and livable local communities.

I think if we weren't as averse to risk taking, we would go for it. BUT - as my political history professor, a true Scouser if there ever was one, likes to remind - the last time the United States was a true multiparty system, we got a civil war.

*Taylor*

[DiamondDog]

What about the people who signed their names and bought the loans?????

You hear plenty of blame to go around, but what you don't hear much of is the people who signed their names to loans that couldn't afford.

Personal responsibility, people, you sign your name to something and buy what you can't afford... it's on you.

I pay my bills and live within my means, but now I have to bail out those folks who bought into mortgages they couldn't afford.

No sympathy here for those stuck with their homes...

I agree, people should not have signed up for mortgages/loans that they knew that they couldn't afford at all and could never pay off at all. :2cents:

[wolfcamp]

I remember watching the news years ago and hearing that entire neighborhoods were being blacklisted by the loan companies. Credit worthy buyers were being denied loans because of the ethnicity of the neighborhood they lived in. I suppose you fix one thing and break something else.

Bankers still have the responsibility to check for creditworthiness. Borrowers shouldn't borrow more than they can afford. Even the builders got into the act by constructing too many homes. Don't forget that bankers were financing them too. Everyone thought they could flip the house or refi the loan before they got in trouble. Everyone was doing it. Investment bankers were working creative deals on the back end. Everyone got greedy. Everyone wanted to make their buck. It's human nature.

The administration had the knobs and levers to dial the economy up or down with interest rates and the printing of money. They wanted to look good and point out how well the economy was doing. They said 'go go go'. They could have, and should have slowed things down. But they didn't, and here we are.

[nothings5d]

What about the people who signed their names and bought the loans?????

You hear plenty of blame to go around, but what you don't hear much of is the people who signed their names to loans that couldn't afford.

Personal responsibility, people, you sign your name to something and buy what you can't afford... it's on you.

I pay my bills and live within my means, but now I have to bail out those folks who bought into mortgages they couldn't afford.

No sympathy here for those stuck with their homes...

They signed their names to loans they COULD afford, at the time. No one expected the interest rates to raise so much. Not even the companies that sold them the loans. What happened was a bunch of gambling on behalf of the companies that made the situation much, much worse.

My dad was comparing the basics of what happened to betting on a horse race. The comparison started with the "homeowner" being able to make payments on their loans as the original bet, and everything else afterwards being the companies.

Bob makes a bet on a horse race for $5. Dan says to Sam, "I bet you $50 dollars that Bob wins that bet." Sam accepts the bet. Sally then makes an offer to Sam, "I'll insure that bet for you for $10. Win or lose I'll give you $50." Sally then goes to Andy and asks for a loan to cover her insurance of Sam's bet on Bob's bet. Andy gives her a loan of $50 at a cost to her of $60. Bob then loses the bet and Sally is out $60 minus the $10 fee for her insurance to Sam. So because Bob made a bad $5 bet Sally is out $50.

The same thing was going on in the financial world for MUCH more money. When the "homeowner" failed to make a payment all of a sudden another financial company was out quite a bit of money, which forced that company to raise it's rates on loans, which meant that some of their customers couldn't make their payments and ANOTHER financial institution was hurt by it. And so on and so forth.

Greedy companies are to blame for the problem. NOT the poor sods who didn't know what the companies were up to.



Oh, and I just remembered something else my dad keeps talking about...

To begin with, my dad is a government employee working for ~60k a year. One of his co-workers, who's husband happens to be a rich Republican corporate type, found it odd how, of all the cars in the parking lot, her car was the only new one. "After all, new cars start at 40k and the middle class family starts at an income of 400k/year." Her husband, apparently, was under a similar misconception of how much the middle class family makes. They both had an automatic assumption of what defined the class structure and when they looked at statistics they never bothered to check how much people actually made. They just looked at how many middle class people there were and inferred that they all must make at least 400k/year.

So, in conclusion, many of the people giving these loans are so STUPID that they are unaware of how much money the average person makes. Their assumptions that people have more money lead them to make stupid decisions and they end up screwing people over. THAT is the real reason this happens.

[ghytifrdnr]

....just to throw another stick on the fire:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info:80/article20964.htm

:bigrin:

[Falke]

Azirish, you do seem quite well informed, and of course, Volt seems to get his information from Moveon.org. The fact of the matter is that both Republicans and Democrats seem to be at fault just as much as the "greedy Wall Street types". More Democrats, but, also many Republicans have gotten huge campaign funds from Wall Street. That is why my policy is not to vote for any imcumbent, regardless of party.

By the way, contrary to the Obama camp, any economist will tell you, you cannot tax your way out of a recession.


Well said! From where I sit... I have picked up on the chain of events that brought this one one. Banks lending cash out to people, then jacking up the rates one year later after practically promicing people that they could refinance to a fixed rate loan... Add this to all the people who decided that "HEY! I could get a stupidly expensive house and a new BMW even though I make 30 grand a year!" only to now find out...no..you can't!

Add this to the greed of CEO's who get in, wreak a company...then move to a new one, and by the same token the idiots who put these people in the head of their companies despite their track record. *Seriously, I don't get how these people keep finding their way at the top. If I were to do this sort of thing at a low level, I would never find work!*

More fun comes when NAFTA was put into play, which really did nothing to help the North American continent as jobs went to Mexico then to China.

...and finally add in high gas prices that toppled this house of cards. *Brought on by oil speculators, whom I hope lost their ass in what is happening now* That is why I am now sitting out in the street.
Also as a side note... put in another token for the "Big 3" automakers who don't seem to think that evolving to meet market demands is a good idea as well as a added bonus to the unions who have priced themselves out of work.

The point of my post is, the banks,people, and businesses are reaping what they have sewn. Government didn't have much to do with any of it. However, considering I wouldn't trust either of the parties with a bag of peanuts, I don't have any faith that they will do anything before the system purges itself of the bad/dead businesses and begin flourishing again.

[JustaguyIndy]

We don't need a multi party system to have another civil war, it's already starting. We have Democrats referring to Republicans as Fascist Nazis, and Republicans referring to Democrats as Communists, and death threats to a US Senator presidential candidate who also happens to be black being made at Republican presidential rallies where he and the Democrats are called terrorists while the Republican nominee just smiles and says nothing.

People signed those loan documents, sure, and *some* of them shouldn't have, but many signed in good faith and willingness with the expectation to be able to pay them, and the promise of the mortgage companies to refinance them after a year or two. What then happened is the mortgages were sold by these corrupt greedy bastards to other corrupt greedy bastards, they refused to refinance and/or then claimed the appraisal of the house at present was half the value of the appraisal only a year or two ago (a factual case in mind known personally to me), and then the interest rates started ballooning.

I have no sympathy for the banks or for wall street, and especially for the corporate executives who were raking in millions in salaries and getting even more millions in bonuses. They did this to the rest of the country and are now whining that their millions in assets aren't growing enough or fast enough while the rest of the country suffers from their misdeeds.

You can fool some of the people, but there are intelligent, well-informed American out here who won't be taken in by smooth words, charm, or promises we know won't be kept. Hell yes, I'm biased, but I'm looking at this country and the situation from my perspective and my experience and all I can say is ... I'd rather vote for Tina Fey than Palin any day...

[Falke]

Hey Indy, you should do what I will be doing on election day. Write in a vote for Ralph Wiggum! :bigrin:

http://www.thesimpsons.com/wiggum/images/pick-wiggum.gif

[JustaguyIndy]

I've got my candidate

http://observed.org/rpi/tshirt-giant/political/family-guy/brian/brian_for_pres_cu.jpg

[darkeyes]

Me cant vote.. liv in rong parta world..but on 4th Nov me will b bizzy as usual..an not so usual.. b out gettin sum fireworks for the followin day an hav lil firework display at me dads wiv our own bonfire in is bak garden... Kate an me promised 2 make the Guy... guess who 'e gonna b an effegy of?? tee hee.. rong.. certainly not Guy Fawkes tho...wy wud me make an effegy a sum 1 who didn like a king much??? Tatties roastin in bonfire.. an lotsa gud nosh... lil plonk an wotch the kids faces lite up wiv glee as squibs an rockets r let off... luffly evenin b had by all... mayb not the frozen chip man an is speccy trollop.. likkin ther wounds me wud hope...:bigrin:

...as V mite say... V for Vendetta.. lil bitta gunpowder treason an plot gud for the soul...:tong:

[jamieknyc]

We don't need a multi party system to have another civil war, it's already starting. We have Democrats referring to Republicans as Fascist Nazis, and Republicans referring to Democrats as Communists, and death threats to a US Senator presidential candidate who also happens to be black being made at Republican presidential rallies where he and the Democrats are called terrorists while the Republican nominee just smiles and says nothing.

People signed those loan documents, sure, and *some* of them shouldn't have, but many signed in good faith and willingness with the expectation to be able to pay them, and the promise of the mortgage companies to refinance them after a year or two. What then happened is the mortgages were sold by these corrupt greedy bastards to other corrupt greedy bastards, they refused to refinance and/or then claimed the appraisal of the house at present was half the value of the appraisal only a year or two ago (a factual case in mind known personally to me), and then the interest rates started ballooning.

I have no sympathy for the banks or for wall street, and especially for the corporate executives who were raking in millions in salaries and getting even more millions in bonuses. They did this to the rest of the country and are now whining that their millions in assets aren't growing enough or fast enough while the rest of the country suffers from their misdeeds.

You can fool some of the people, but there are intelligent, well-informed American out here who won't be taken in by smooth words, charm, or promises we know won't be kept. Hell yes, I'm biased, but I'm looking at this country and the situation from my perspective and my experience and all I can say is ... I'd rather vote for Tina Fey than Palin any day...

No one signed "in good faith" when they put on a loan application that they made three times their actual income and that the pruchase price was $100,000 more than it really was, so they could get a no-down-payment loan and a check back at the closing. I am a real estate lawyer, too, so I am speaking from experience of real life situations, not from some talking-head show.

Yesterday I had to tell a woman that she was going to lose her house. I did whatever I could for her, even though she can't pay me for my time, I'll just chalk it up to my credit in Heaven. But she had no business signing a mortgage for $260,000 when she works as a maid in a hotel. Besides which, I suspect that she and her father have a good chunk of that money stashed away in the West Indian island country that she comes from.

But the industry did lobby very aggressively for rule changes allowing them to sell mortgages on a no-documentation basis, and did market them very aggressively to poor minority borrowers who couldn't afford them. The politicians ar at fault, too, both Democrats and Republicans, for allowing that to happen. One party packaged it as saying that home ownership shouldn't be limited to white middle-class people, and the other as free-market ideology.

[12voltman59]

Well--since everything has gone to the dogs anyway---in Rabbit Hash, Ky--their "mayor" is an animal--usually a dog--(the most recent "mayor" passed away recently, so they are holding an election for a new one) I am voting for Lucy Lou for mayor---but hell---she couldn't do worse than what we have had these past eight years and are probably gonna get for at least the next four years---I figure I will write in Lucy Lou for President!! LOL With the vote for Rabbit Hash mayor--you sure as heck are buying the vote---at a dollar each and you can vote as many times as ya want---sounds good to me----seems better than the way we are doing it now!

For more info on the race for Rabbit Hash "mayor" go to www.rabbithashusa.com

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r216/mpgarr/m_6bee41d5947cd18e5a2aa623ab128bcb.jpg

[FalconAngel]

Me cant vote.. liv in rong parta world..but on 4th Nov me will b bizzy as usual..an not so usual.. b out gettin sum fireworks for the followin day an hav lil firework display at me dads wiv our own bonfire in is bak garden... Kate an me promised 2 make the Guy... guess who 'e gonna b an effegy of?? tee hee.. rong.. certainly not Guy Fawkes tho...wy wud me make an effegy a sum 1 who didn like a king much??? Tatties roastin in bonfire.. an lotsa gud nosh... lil plonk an wotch the kids faces lite up wiv glee as squibs an rockets r let off... luffly evenin b had by all... mayb not the frozen chip man an is speccy trollop.. likkin ther wounds me wud hope...:bigrin:

...as V mite say... V for Vendetta.. lil bitta gunpowder treason an plot gud for the soul...:tong:

I remember when I was stationed at RAF Bentwaters, near Ipswich, that we had 2 days of fireworks a year.

Since it was a USAF installation on an RAF base, we had fireworks on July 4th and then again on Nov 5 (Guy Fawlkes Day) from the British liason unit on base.

Gotta love a people that celebrate acts of treason as a national holiday.:bigrin: It just shows that the US and UK are a lot closer to each other than some people wish to think.:tongue:

[anon092708]

It is silly to blame the Republicans for this financial meltdown. This stretches back to The Clinton Administration. The government on the whole is to blame - President, Congress, Democrats, and Republicans. Their leadership blows.

Here's my take on who shares the responsibility of our current situation, from most to least responsbility:

1. Private Sector Lenders

These are the people closest to the "product/service" and understood it best. They knew best what was good and what was bad about it. They know how the housing and financial markets worked. They became greedy and chose to take advantage of the American "Dream" and pushed as hard as they could. They intentionally ignored the consequences. More blame lies with upper management than with the front-line workforce.

(A close) 2. The Government

It's not like the government's financial regulation agencies had no idea what was going on. They had all the time in the world to blow the whistle. I think they liked seeing the stock markets soar and their little affimative action-related government programs being put into affect. The President, Senators, and Representatives (of both parties) make 6 figures while in office and are usually independently wealthy before office.....they don't really care.

3. The Consumer

This is a little trickier one.

Imagine this - you don't make a lot of money, you're not the most educated person, and someone says you can legitimately own a home. Who wouldn't say "yes" to that? How many of us really understand how loans work? I didn't until I got into the lending business, and I'm a very intelligent, well-educated person.

Society on the whole falls under this category, too. If we actually had ethics and weren't trying to eradicate Christianity from our ranks, this actually might have had less of a chance of happening. What about our public schooling system? Are there any courses teaching very basic fiscal responsibility? No. And there should be. We need to be taught this at a young age.

Just my :2cents:

[JustaguyIndy]

No one signed "in good faith" when they put on a loan application that they made three times their actual income and that the pruchase price was $100,000 more than it really was, so they could get a no-down-payment loan and a check back at the closing. I am a real estate lawyer, too, so I am speaking from experience of real life situations, not from some talking-head show.

Yesterday I had to tell a woman that she was going to lose her house. I did whatever I could for her, even though she can't pay me for my time, I'll just chalk it up to my credit in Heaven. But she had no business signing a mortgage for $260,000 when she works as a maid in a hotel. Besides which, I suspect that she and her father have a good chunk of that money stashed away in the West Indian island country that she comes from.


I'm not talking about those people, those are the ones which shouldn't have signed, but I get damned tired of people lumping stupid bastards like the one you mention with the rest of the people who didn't try to screw the system, but in turn got screwed by the system.

[TaylorMade]

It is silly to blame the Republicans for this financial meltdown. This stretches back to The Clinton Administration. The government on the whole is to blame - President, Congress, Democrats, and Republicans. Their leadership blows.

Here's my take on who shares the responsibility of our current situation, from most to least responsbility:

1. Private Sector Lenders

These are the people closest to the "product/service" and understood it best. They knew best what was good and what was bad about it. They know how the housing and financial markets worked. They became greedy and chose to take advantage of the American "Dream" and pushed as hard as they could. They intentionally ignored the consequences. More blame lies with upper management than with the front-line workforce.

(A close) 2. The Government

It's not like the government's financial regulation agencies had no idea what was going on. They had all the time in the world to blow the whistle. I think they liked seeing the stock markets soar and their little affimative action-related government programs being put into affect. The President, Senators, and Representatives (of both parties) make 6 figures while in office and are usually independently wealthy before office.....they don't really care.

3. The Consumer

This is a little trickier one.

Imagine this - you don't make a lot of money, you're not the most educated person, and someone says you can legitimately own a home. Who wouldn't say "yes" to that? How many of us really understand how loans work? I didn't until I got into the lending business, and I'm a very intelligent, well-educated person.

Society on the whole falls under this category, too. If we actually had ethics and weren't trying to eradicate Christianity from our ranks, this actually might have had less of a chance of happening. What about our public schooling system? Are there any courses teaching very basic fiscal responsibility? No. And there should be. We need to be taught this at a young age.

Just my :2cents:

You could toss the rest of the post out, but - - I think if personal finance were taught as a requirement to graduate High School, it could do nothing but help.

*Taylor*

[jamieknyc]

I'm not talking about those people, those are the ones which shouldn't have signed, but I get damned tired of people lumping stupid bastards like the one you mention with the rest of the people who didn't try to screw the system, but in turn got screwed by the system.

The problem is that Fannie and Freddie were required to take the crap loans along with the good ones. But they also lobbied aggressively to be allowed to do so, too.

[JustaguyIndy]

The problem is that Fannie and Freddie were required to take the crap loans along with the good ones. But they also lobbied aggressively to be allowed to do so, too.

A bigger problem was that predatory lending was allowed to run so rampant. So many companies like Ameriquest (AMC), Countrywide, etc. And, often, someone would have their mortgage arranged through one company or bank, and then it would be sold to one of these predatory institutions who then started screwing people.

[vitt&cho]

Me cant vote.. liv in rong parta world..but on 4th Nov me will b bizzy as usual..an not so usual.. b out gettin sum fireworks for the followin day an hav lil firework display at me dads wiv our own bonfire in is bak garden... Kate an me promised 2 make the Guy... guess who 'e gonna b an effegy of?? tee hee.. rong.. certainly not Guy Fawkes tho...wy wud me make an effegy a sum 1 who didn like a king much??? Tatties roastin in bonfire.. an lotsa gud nosh... lil plonk an wotch the kids faces lite up wiv glee as squibs an rockets r let off... luffly evenin b had by all... mayb not the frozen chip man an is speccy trollop.. likkin ther wounds me wud hope...:bigrin:

...as V mite say... V for Vendetta.. lil bitta gunpowder treason an plot gud for the soul...:tong:

Verily!

[MaybeSayMaybe]

Yes, a monumental amount of arrogance, greed, and stupidity has led to this situation. There is plenty of blame to go around. Democratic and republication leadership with their heads up their asses. Stupid and greedy bankers. Stupid borrowers. Fed chiefs who are dumb enough to think they can permanently levitate prices to create the illusion of wealth creation. Treasury chiefs who have a serious case of Wall St. On the Brain.

And now for the good news. Mr. Market is now finally in full tantrum mode, kicking the shit out of all the foolish people who had to buy in while prices were high. But in fact there is mounting evidence that this may be the best buying opportunity since the fall 1998 meltdown. A lot of these stocks are being trampled down to good price levels. And when people like that Cramer guy start telling you to flush your stocks down the toilet, that's the best kind of buy signal. So be prepared for a violent bottom, then a zinger of an uphill ride. While everybody else is chopping holes in the bottom of the boat to let the water out...

[fairbankswingers]

What is funny is no one in the MSM bring up BHO was the #2 guy in donations from Freddie...soooo then with that being siad why is it always the Republicans that are to blame...to be honest it is both...yes BOTH sides that played this one out and BHO is just as dirty in the 1 year he has been in the senate...change...ya, my arse...he is the same old same just like Mcain...just pick the less of two evils on this one and Biden is the really bad one so...

[hudson9]

Uninformed people signing mortgages they didn't realize could (and did) dramatically increase monthly payments.
Lenders eager to give mortgages to clearly high risk borrowers, because there was more profit in packaging and selling mortgages than in actually holding them and collecting on them.
Brokers who would by any mortgage, without even assessing individual risk, because it was more profitable to just package everything and sell as many packages as possible.
Financiers who invented all kinds of arcane mortgage backed securities, never assessing the risk, because "real estate NEVER goes down!"

After the Great Depression, legislation created regulations and regulatory bodies to hold the financial system to responsible, ethical behavior (because pure profit motive hadn't done it), and for half a century it worked.

Starting with Reagan, the Republicans (and too many complicit Democrats) began systematically dismantling regulations and underfunding regulatory agencies. The result -- first, the Rich got Richer, and some of the rest of us rode the wave for a while as well, but even so, the wealth gap between the richest 1% and all the rest of us got bigger than it had been since the age of the Robber Barons.

Then, the bubbles started bursting. First the high-tech bubble, then the real estate bubble, and now all hell is breaking loose all over the global economy.

Of course "Wall Street" was greedy -- under a free-market capitalist system they're supposed to be. But, systems that reward only profit, only reward... profit! And usually only short-term profit. Not safety, fairness, justice, or equal opportunity. If you want those, you have to explicitly build them in -- through regulation. Limiting completely unfettered ability to amass ridiculous amounts of wealth, and even some lack of "efficiency," are the price we pay for: safety, fairness, justice, and equal opportunity.

These are the facts, and you've got to deal with them. Name calling and ridiculing the people and organizations that bring the bad news are not just non-productive, they demonstrate a kind of willful refusal to engage in serious debate that is actually counter-productive.

Kind of like repeating "William Ayers!" "Jeremia Wright!" when the subject is the economy.

:2cents:

[binectar]

Have you ever bought a home yourself? Didn't you have to fill out reams of paperwork to get a loan? Please...tell me where a bank exists that will give me money based on guesses, estimates, and assumptions!!!



They signed their names to loans they COULD afford, at the time. No one expected the interest rates to raise so much. Not even the companies that sold them the loans. What happened was a bunch of gambling on behalf of the companies that made the situation much, much worse.

My dad was comparing the basics of what happened to betting on a horse race. The comparison started with the "homeowner" being able to make payments on their loans as the original bet, and everything else afterwards being the companies.

Bob makes a bet on a horse race for $5. Dan says to Sam, "I bet you $50 dollars that Bob wins that bet." Sam accepts the bet. Sally then makes an offer to Sam, "I'll insure that bet for you for $10. Win or lose I'll give you $50." Sally then goes to Andy and asks for a loan to cover her insurance of Sam's bet on Bob's bet. Andy gives her a loan of $50 at a cost to her of $60. Bob then loses the bet and Sally is out $60 minus the $10 fee for her insurance to Sam. So because Bob made a bad $5 bet Sally is out $50.

The same thing was going on in the financial world for MUCH more money. When the "homeowner" failed to make a payment all of a sudden another financial company was out quite a bit of money, which forced that company to raise it's rates on loans, which meant that some of their customers couldn't make their payments and ANOTHER financial institution was hurt by it. And so on and so forth.

Greedy companies are to blame for the problem. NOT the poor sods who didn't know what the companies were up to.



Oh, and I just remembered something else my dad keeps talking about...

To begin with, my dad is a government employee working for ~60k a year. One of his co-workers, who's husband happens to be a rich Republican corporate type, found it odd how, of all the cars in the parking lot, her car was the only new one. "After all, new cars start at 40k and the middle class family starts at an income of 400k/year." Her husband, apparently, was under a similar misconception of how much the middle class family makes. They both had an automatic assumption of what defined the class structure and when they looked at statistics they never bothered to check how much people actually made. They just looked at how many middle class people there were and inferred that they all must make at least 400k/year.

So, in conclusion, many of the people giving these loans are so STUPID that they are unaware of how much money the average person makes. Their assumptions that people have more money lead them to make stupid decisions and they end up screwing people over. THAT is the real reason this happens.

[binectar]

I've got to hand it to you...the presidential "debates" just aren't hitting home! Why the hell can't someone stand up and speak his or her mind without the without advisors watering everything down to passionless rhetoric? I sat up in my chair when the elderly woman asked (it may not be an exact quote) "What would you ask us as American to do in order to help this situation?" It's a fundamental question in all our minds.

NEITHER candidate answered the question! It's one that screams for an answer...yesterday! Instead, both went on and on about the programs they propose, the "weaknesses" of their opponent, etc. We need a plain talker. Obama is far too slick, and McCain is just too nervous to address these issues in a straightforward manner.


Uninformed people signing mortgages they didn't realize could (and did) dramatically increase monthly payments.
Lenders eager to give mortgages to clearly high risk borrowers, because there was more profit in packaging and selling mortgages than in actually holding them and collecting on them.
Brokers who would by any mortgage, without even assessing individual risk, because it was more profitable to just package everything and sell as many packages as possible.
Financiers who invented all kinds of arcane mortgage backed securities, never assessing the risk, because "real estate NEVER goes down!"

After the Great Depression, legislation created regulations and regulatory bodies to hold the financial system to responsible, ethical behavior (because pure profit motive hadn't done it), and for half a century it worked.

Starting with Reagan, the Republicans (and too many complicit Democrats) began systematically dismantling regulations and underfunding regulatory agencies. The result -- first, the Rich got Richer, and some of the rest of us rode the wave for a while as well, but even so, the wealth gap between the richest 1% and all the rest of us got bigger than it had been since the age of the Robber Barons.

Then, the bubbles started bursting. First the high-tech bubble, then the real estate bubble, and now all hell is breaking loose all over the global economy.

Of course "Wall Street" was greedy -- under a free-market capitalist system they're supposed to be. But, systems that reward only profit, only reward... profit! And usually only short-term profit. Not safety, fairness, justice, or equal opportunity. If you want those, you have to explicitly build them in -- through regulation. Limiting completely unfettered ability to amass ridiculous amounts of wealth, and even some lack of "efficiency," are the price we pay for: safety, fairness, justice, and equal opportunity.

These are the facts, and you've got to deal with them. Name calling and ridiculing the people and organizations that bring the bad news are not just non-productive, they demonstrate a kind of willful refusal to engage in serious debate that is actually counter-productive.

Kind of like repeating "William Ayers!" "Jeremia Wright!" when the subject is the economy.

:2cents:

[lsd51]

Workers of the world- unite! You have nothing to lose but your chains!

[darkeyes]

LMAO yeah as if Communism/Socialism has actually ever worked anywhere ever! :rolleyes:

Sure it looks excellent in theory but in reality it will never work and it never has and it's a pointless foolish pipe dream.

If you've ever met anyone who has lived under a Socialist/Communist regime you'd realize that it's a failure and a horrible system of government, people get oppressed/have lots of apathy, and the people who actually are in power are very corrupt.naaa.. cant even b bothad gettin out fly swatter...get fed up repeatin mesel so will jus iggie sad insect that says, knos an thinks precisely..nowt..:tong:

[Falke]

LMAO yeah as if Communism/Socialism has actually ever worked anywhere ever! :rolleyes:

Sure it looks excellent in theory but in reality it will never work and it never has and it's a pointless foolish pipe dream.

If you've ever met anyone who has lived under a Socialist/Communist regime you'd realize that it's a failure and a horrible system of government, people get oppressed/have lots of apathy, and the people who actually are in power are very corrupt.


More or less, Communists in particular make the Nazis actually look good if you have ever read into the history of the Soviet Union...or any other communist country for that matter. *Funfact: I am no fan of the Nazis either!* Sure, you have a fun revolution and lynch the pricks causing the problems, however look at who gets into power once the dust clears and watch what they do after their power is consolidated.

I have heard so many say "It's because the wrong people were in charge". Well, they have many, many chances and have failed every time. Further it is going to keep happening that way because you will always have someone near the head of the party who is looking to increase their own power and realizes that it could be done very easily by making a few people disappear. Of course, in a democratic election when a communist party is in place, it dosen't get that far as eventually they are voted out in favor of another party. Hence, it really can't take off.

Sorry to go OT there, but that has been my observation from all the historical research I have done since highschool...be it on the topic of Communism or incedently involving Communism.

[darkeyes]

More or less, Communists in particular make the Nazis actually look good if you have ever read into the history of the Soviet Union...or any other communist country for that matter. *Funfact: I am no fan of the Nazis either!* Sure, you have a fun revolution and lynch the pricks causing the problems, however look at who gets into power once the dust clears and watch what they do after their power is consolidated.

I have heard so many say "It's because the wrong people were in charge". Well, they have many, many chances and have failed every time. Further it is going to keep happening that way because you will always have someone near the head of the party who is looking to increase their own power and realizes that it could be done very easily by making a few people disappear. Of course, in a democratic election when a communist party is in place, it dosen't get that far as eventually they are voted out in favor of another party. Hence, it really can't take off.

Sorry to go OT there, but that has been my observation from all the historical research I have done since highschool...be it on the topic of Communism or incedently involving Communism. Once, there was a King. His kingdom had been invaded and occupied by a much more powerful nation than his own and for 20 years his people suffered under the heel of their oppressors. Shortly after his coronation he was forced to flee his enemies, not all of whom were the invader, but fellow countrymen bought with promises of titles and gold.. He fought and lost battle after battle and was finally forced into the northern wilderness of the Kingdom. It seemed all was lost for him, his people and his nation.

The King, hunted and hungry, with no army, and no support from a people oppressed and hungry themselves, exhausted and dispirited after two decades of defeat was finally forced to flee to the extremity of the kingom and to the western isles where even in the golden age of his kingdom no royal writ ever ran. Wet and cold, hungry and ill, he sheltered in a cave high in the mountians. There, depressed, dispirited and having given up all hope of ever gaining for his people the freedom they so desired and deserved, he gazed into the dark empty space of the cave.

After a short while his eyes adjusted to the darkness of the cave. He saw something shimmer in the near blackness and crawled closer. Squinting his eyes, in the gloom he saw a spider building its web. The spider began to climb up a long strand of the web and half way up it fell back to its starting point. A second time the spider began its ascent, and about two thirds of the way up it again slipped won to the end of the strand. Again and again the little spider tried to achieve its goal and each time it met with failure. The King watched, fascinated by the little creature, so humble and yet so determined. Finally, after many attempts, the spider once again began to ascend its web. It struggled in starts and stops and the King thought that once again the spider was doomed to failure. Suddenly, witha last determined burst of energy, the spider shot to the top of the strand and found success.

The King laughed with glee.. with a joy and a refound will to regain his kingdom and his nations liberty. "You were so brave little spider" said he. "Such strength of will. Such determination. I shall leave this place, and gather my people and build another army. Like you little creature I will try and try and try again until my people are free and the last of the oppressors have left our land".

Encouraged by that little spider, the King left the cave, and once again took up arms against his enemies, and in time he and his people won their freedom, and achieved their dream of building the nation into what they wished it to be.

The spider is an ancient legend. It is no more than a legend. The King however was real, and his struggle and that of his people real. The achievement of their dream believed by all of Europe to be impossible was attained. Against all the odds the King and his people dreamt and won. After many defeats and discouragements, they fought for and won what was their hearts desire.

I have my dream, but unlike the King I will never see it realised, but I hope and believe that in centuries to come it may be. What will not work now because we are unready for it is not necessarily something which we cannot make work in future days. Like the legendary spider, and the medieval King who won his dream when all said he never could, I and others after me shall aspire to my dream, and kismet willing, in times to come.... it will be achieved after no matter how many failed attempts. Because something is believed impossible does not mean that with sufficient faith and will and determination that it will forever remain so...

[12voltman59]

Responding to some comments made that "volty got his news from MoveOn.org"--I think not--I have not been to their site in at least a year---I get my news from many sources--including taking some time to listen to FOX News and some of the right wing talk radio programs---(can't stand 'em too long--I can't take 'em too long!!)

I get my news from a variety of places--it was watching FAUX News that I heard all that crap I talked about--I know that 99.99999% of the sorts of things like that you hear on FAUX is total BS---built around some small kernel of fact---so I did look into it--and found that Barney Frank and other Dems played their part as well in lessening the mortage standards in one area-but not all----something I may not have been aware of or it just didn't register on the radar till we hit this wall and yeah---poooey on me for that--but hell--there is so much stuff going on out there--ya can't know it all--especially when--once again--the mainstream media didn't talk about it much at all---it wasn't really on the radars of the off mainstream media of either the right or the left.

I think that if someone has followed my posts on things of this nature over time--I pretty much include links to stories, web sites, etc that cover the point I am trying to make--admittedly--putting in more liniks to those things I agree with--but usually try to find some story taking a contrasting and oppossing viewpoint----

As far as reading something off the mainstream media--since the time I was in college and had to for classes--I have read "Foreign Affaris" Magazine and other things of that nature--pretty geeky and wonky for sure--but you do get long format articles looking at critical aspects of foreign affairs that go beyond anything you will ever get in the MSM.

When I am making my points on here--I am editorializing afterall--not generally giving a "fair and balanced" news report--save the times I run across some things that I think are interesting and post the links in a thread with little or no comment---

The thing that stoked my IRE about the reportage on FAUX-was that according to them---the greed of the wall stret crowd was suddenly non-existent and it was all about the Dems and the poor who did it--and then--not long after they played up that stuff--you saw the talking heads for the Repubicans and the McCain campaign picking up the talking points. Before long---you heard that kind of talk from "Joe Sixpack"--SOOOO (wink, wink--shoutout!!)--the Republican spin machine found something new to sell and disseminated via its many media tentacles.

[hudson9]

Relax, Volty -- anyone who reads with a little care and a critical eye can generally tell how well-informed (or at least thought-out) a poster's post is, and I think it's a fair observation that you are pretty well informed.

That anyone can STILL buy into the myth that the mainstream media is somehow leftist ("CNN - Cresent News Network" -- please, have you actually watched CNN?) can only demonstrate that they pay little attention to the MM, none at all to the truly progressive media, and almost exclusively listen to the right-wing media & blogs.

There is plenty wrong with, and plenty of failures on the part of the MM, but its NOT that they're myopically leftist!

[lsd51]

Working people never get anything that they don't fight for.

[nothings5d]

Have you ever bought a home yourself? Didn't you have to fill out reams of paperwork to get a loan? Please...tell me where a bank exists that will give me money based on guesses, estimates, and assumptions!!!

Well, honestly, no I have never bought a home, college student here. And yes I imagine that the people who give out loans do all of their business based on hard facts. But I was referring to the rich bastards at the top. The ones who have no fucking clue how the day to day business of their company is actually run, but are still allowed to make decisions based off of whatever information they think is the right information. Those assholes rarely ever bother to check if their information is actually correct.

[darkeyes]

Working people never get anything that they don't fight for.
they do so..they gettin well screwed now an they didn ask or fite for that...

[12voltman59]

Chicago Tribune Columnist Clarence Page recently wrote this great column on this subect--- I tried to copy it from the Trib's website but could not--but here is the link to the column:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/chi-oped1008pageoct08,0,5397180.column

[hudson9]

A good column -- informative and rational. Unfortunately, few people ever bother to do any actual research (even simply seeking other opinions) to see if what they've been told is true. It's easier to believe what they WANT to -- to blame "the usual suspects."

And the Rovian-Cheneyian-NeoCon-Faux bloviators know that if they just keep repeating the lie long enough, people will start believing it. I actually heard a McCain advisor on the radio this morning claiming that the banking industry hasn't been deregulated -- and anyway, the Democrats did it too... ?! -- talk about trying to have it both ways! It didn't happen, and the Democrats did it too... that thing that didn't happen...

And anyway... William Ayers!... Jeremia Wright!... Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain... !...

[NightHawk]

In reading through this old debate from Oct 08, I was impressed that many bisexuals and friends commented outside the usual box created by the fact that Dems are often more accommodating of non-heterosexuality, therefore I buy the complete Democrat package. Of course, given the refusal to address the bad "Don't ask, don't tell" policy and the often half-hearted support for domestic partnership contracts other than one man - one woman, one might wonder how strong Democrat support for sexual individuality actually is.

The problem of the partial financial collapse was very complex. One of the commonly overlooked components was the role of local politics and in some cases federal government policies on local home prices. The major mortgage default problems were and are markedly different across the country.

In some areas, such as California, the cost of homes on average in 2007 was 8 times the average annual income of home buyers. When the home cost to income ratio is more than 2.5 times, the mortgage is classified as a sub-prime loan. Why are homes so expensive in CA? Home development limits to slow the increasing cost of local government services, land becoming very limited due to local zoning restrictions including to keep areas green, building codes forcing the use of expensive materials, sometimes obsolete materials, and often requiring more manual and locally hired labor, and some limits due to excessive federal ownership of land are among the factors. Around Las Vegas, NV, the problem of rapidly increasing home costs was largely because land was unavailable due to federal lands hemming in the city's growth. Many of the other areas across the country had problems due to home costs going up so much most people could not buy without getting sub-prime mortgages for similar reasons.

Florida was a special case partly due to changes in flood insurance requirements, but also a lot of speculation perhaps anticipating many baby boomers soon moving in as they retire. Michigan and Ohio had become depressed economies largely due to old industries tied down by labor unions and to unfavorable business climates. People were losing jobs and moving to other states and home values were falling to the point that it early became advantageous to walk away from a mortgage.

There were many, many areas of the country where mortgage foreclosure rates never did get particularly high.

Meanwhile, with homes becoming more and more expensive in some areas, pressure mounted on Congress to try to see that mortgages were more affordable. In effect, in many cases, Congress was enlisted to fight the results of local government policies. Pressure was put on banks and other financial institutions to make loans to more and more people with inadequate means to purchase homes. Those who were reluctant to do so, were often sued. Obama's law firm was among those making a business of this. The Democrats were particularly encouraging of Fanny Mae and Freddy Mac in their efforts to "guarantee" mortgages and to repackage them as investment grade derivatives and when the problems were finally pointed out by the Bush administration and by John McCain, they emphatically denied them. Of course, the Republicans should have seen the problems earlier and fought harder than they did for change.

The financial industry did get carried away with the easy money they were making for several years. Frankly, there were many in the business of selling new mortgages whose business ethics were sub-par. Many call for more regulation to combat this, but when entire industries are given special treatment by government as Fanny Mae and Freddy Mac in effect gave the financial industry, a government agency watchdog is likely to have just as many political limits as Fanny Mae and Freddy Mac did. The other problem with the financial industry was that they were new to the mortgage derivative investments which seemed so good when home prices were going up and the economy was growing well, but were a terrible problem when the economy hit a recession brought on 9 months after a spike of oil prices.

9 of the 10 recessions in the U.S. since WWII occurred about 9 months after a spike in oil prices. The U.S. actually went into recession a few months after most of the rest of the world did. So, contrary to common thought, it was not the U.S. housing and mortgage crisis that started the recession. It did make it worse, as did the anti-business and anti-investor rhetoric of the Democrats and to some degree the Republicans during the election. This was followed by a consistently anti-wealthy, anti-investor, and anti-business policy in the Obama administration and the Democrat Congress. Increasing taxes and government spending will always slow down growth of the economy. Even the government revenues go up with lower tax rates, as shown by the Coolidge, Kennedy, Reagan, and Bush tax reductions. Increasing tax rates as FDR did by a factor of 3 in the Great Depression is a great recipe for economic stagnation. The ballooning government debt and the expected future inflation, are a terrible problem for those planning business investments. Except for some industries the Dems have chosen to be winners, most industries and most investors and especially most small businesses have had to pull in their horns due to the uncertainties created in this climate. This has greatly delayed the recovery, which should have been underway already, but now is clearly still in the future. Unemployment will be going up for some time after the GDP starts to grow, which it has not yet done.

Bad government policies, whether at the local level or the national level, have bad consequences. We will also have a business cycle due to bad business decisions to contend with, but one always wishes that we would not add to that problem the problem of bad government.