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When Does it count as Cheating ?
Hey Everyone,
The Wife & I Met this Wonderful Man right here on these Very Forums, We've talked to him alot online, Met him in real life ..... Went out on dates. But he's Telling me He's NOT Ready for anything sexual ..... Ok cool i can deal with that .......
So over the thanksgiving holiday he invites us down to his house for thanksgiving dinner, That made me quite happy, So once there the wife and i decided we would stay over the whole weekend and come home on sunday! So Me and Michael's Live in Boy toy .... came back up to my house to get Jess and I More Clean clothes ..... While Him and I Were up here, HE Found it ok to Have sex with my wife ....... Neither of them Told me ANYTHING About it until Tonight, DECEMBER 4th, and this took place the day after thanksgiving! ...... ...... Im guess im asking would anyone else consider this cheating, since he's telling me he dont wanna do anything sexual until he gets to know us better or what ..... Am i just being stupid here ? they both have lied to me, BOTH OF THEM! I Wouldnt be so upset about this, HAD Our FIRST Sexual Experience with HIM Involved BOTH OF US! NOT JUST ONE OF US! ........ Im tore up here ... Im quite ready to crawl under a rock and die ..... Someone explain please, Help me make some sense of this before i up and do something stupid ....... My heart is broken here, because I Honestly LOVE THEM BOTH ...... but i cannot take the lies if this is what's gonna happen .....
Thanks In Advance .... Dunno that i'll be able to answer later .. Im pretty upset right now .... I So thought our first time with him was going to be together .... and i would have been OK With it not being, IF I had not been lied too for almost a full week about it, because I have asked them BOTH Why didnt you guys mess around ...... They both said we only teased each other a lil bit .... NO ONE Said YEAH WE FUCKED OK ....... Im HURT! HEARTBROKEN TO BE EXACT ...... Him and I are the BiSexual one's and HE Gives it to her first KNOWING Damn well im about to die for a good piece of Cock up my arse ........ I DONT UNDERSTAND .......
~BILL~ :flag4:
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Re: When Does it count as Cheating ?
That's crap! This a "Bisexual site" It sounds like you just picked up a guy who only wanted to do your wife. He was misleading both of you so I don't know if you should blame your wife totally. He may have told her something like "lets get started and when your husband comes back he can join in"
Tell the guy to get lost and find someone who will have sex with the two of you.
Just read your profile. This guy you met is a player. Only after your wife. Get rid of him and move on. Sad to see people like that interfering with our bisexual lives.
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Re: When Does it count as Cheating ?
ugh.
Not only does it suck he did this to you, but doublesucked your wife, the one person you depend on for trusting fully didn't stop it before you showed up.
* sigh *
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Re: When Does it count as Cheating ?
The minute he said he wasn't ready for anything sexual yet, it should have made a red warning flag go up. Sites like this are full of guys who lie about being bisexual thinking they will be able to just get a piece of the wife.
As for your wife, it depends on what the two of you laid down for rules before you got involved in this situation. If there were no rules she did nothing wrong.
Overall we both think you are over reacting. You got involved in an adult situation willfully. They obviously had an attraction for each other. It would appear that you were left out intentionally. Based on your attitude in your post above we don't really blame them. You seem more concerned in yourself than in the group as a whole. We also don't think you are ready for this type of "adult" activity. If you think that much of two people you are happy to see them enjoy each other, not upset because they did.:2cents:
You might read the Madonna quote you use as a signature. Obviously it only applies to you and not them
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Re: When Does it count as Cheating ?
Sounds like its just as much your wife's fault as it was his. Expecially if she did not tell you that they had had sex while you were off playing errand boy.
Then to purpously keep this info from you was wrong. They both should have said something as soon as you returned.
Maybe he didnt feel a sexual attraction towards you, but evidently did for your wife, and she was wrong for engaging in sex without you knowing it. Unless you had those kinds of guidelines in your relationship.
This dude was buttering up the cow to get the calf, Son. Too bad you had to meet him through here. Lots of guys profess to be Bi just to get women, and he did.
Good Luck to you Dearheart.
Cat
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Re: When Does it count as Cheating ?
Nevermind his HIV+ sero-status, this guy sounds like a liar, manipulator, a player, and a cheat.
Get out of the friendship/relationship you have with him now unless you want to be hurt more by him and you want your relationship with your wife to dissolve.
I know you don't like me but you did write about how badly you wanted this guy and how he promised that he'd have sex with both you and your wife together for the first time and then he lied, fucked up whatever trust he had with you, and went behind your back.
Also have a talk with your wife and ask her why she did this?
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Re: When Does it count as Cheating ?
Excuse Me But DUH! Im OVER REACTING And im NOT Ready for this TYPE Of Adult Realationship ....... C'mon Would Either of you LIKE BEING LIED TOO ?
When you straight forward ASKED THEM BOTH if anything happened while you Was Gone ? And they BOTH SAID NO ..........
I Told My wife i didnt care if she had Sex with him, But to do so and when asked to Lie about it ..... that's a WHOLE Different Story ... TRUST ... EVERYONE NEEDS IT & DESERVES IT .....
What, i mean really ....... What kinda realationship do you have ? One with NO TRUST What so ever ....... ? Im Sorry but there has to be some trust in it or im OUT ....
If you cant UNDERSTAND Being Lied to Is WRONG ... Then Please DO NOT Responde To This, as your Only wasting my time .... I Wont even try to explain Why Lying in this sort of realationship is SO WRONG! Teenagers Lie, Not a 33, 38 & 40 Year old ..... Her being 33 & Him 40, So that makes Me Oh wow, 38! ......
Would ANYONE Else here like being lied to about what i was ? ..... or AM I REALLY OVER REACTING TO THIS ? ....... I Dont think i am .... but i am quite upset atm ..... about BEING LIED TOO
And Diamond Dog ..... Man your fine .... I Cant hold a grudge for more than about 4 or 5 mins sooooooo Your cool dude ..... =)
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Originally Posted by
welickit
The minute he said he wasn't ready for anything sexual yet, it should have made a red warning flag go up. Sites like this are full of guys who lie about being bisexual thinking they will be able to just get a piece of the wife.
As for your wife, it depends on what the two of you laid down for rules before you got involved in this situation. If there were no rules she did nothing wrong.
Overall we both think you are over reacting. You got involved in an adult situation willfully. They obviously had an attraction for each other. It would appear that you were left out intentionally. Based on your attitude in your post above we don't really blame them. You seem more concerned in yourself than in the group as a whole. We also don't think you are ready for this type of "adult" activity. If you think that much of two people you are happy to see them enjoy each other, not upset because they did.:2cents:
You might read the Madonna quote you use as a signature. Obviously it only applies to you and not them
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Re: When Does it count as Cheating ?
Well, I guess you can chalk this up to a lesson learned. You got a real world lesson in what can happen in these situations.
You now know the extent of the honesty of both of these people, and unfortunately, YOUR the one who has to decide how to deal with it.
And if DD is correct, you have additional problems to consider...
Good luck!
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Another consideration of "Bisexual Ethics"...
arises. Here an excerpt from manuscript [draft] in progress (special attention to footnote).
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It is the stated contention and aversion here to inflictions of psychic “anomaly” whereby the question of legitimate polysexuality even as an orientation is dismissed, as one which may include explicit definitions of behavior that may not be consistent with a generally healthy psyche of moderation, education, common sense, or "sanity"-
or else-wise paraphilial in nature:
I am bisexual.
I suck dick
I eat pussy.
I eat ass.
I DO NOT drink human blood, eat feces or human flesh.
I fuck pussy.
I fuck ass.
I fuck mouth.
I DO NOT fuck species other than adult humans.
We cannot go on excusing every whim for our science. [1]
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[1] There are other things in course – as a matter of ethics- we also do not tend to consider we should not fuck. "Thy neighbor’s wife" being one such. This to be addressed at a later juncture.
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Re: When Does it count as Cheating ?
I agree 100% with Diamond Dog!!! He is correct!!
They both lied!! They are BOTH wrong for that!!
They both went behind your back! They are BOTH wrong for that!
He had intentions of trying something with your wife when you were sent to get more clothes I am sure!! HE is wrong for that!!
Your wife not stopping things before you returned is HER fault alone!!
You have some serious thinking to do!! Neither is at fault alone! They are both equally at fault!
GOOD LUCK!! Hope you can find peace in this situation with your wife!!
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Re: When Does it count as Cheating ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bi Boi Indiana
Hey Everyone,
The Wife & I Met this Wonderful Man right here on these Very Forums, We've talked to him alot online, Met him in real life ..... Went out on dates. But he's Telling me He's NOT Ready for anything sexual ..... Ok cool i can deal with that .......
So over the thanksgiving holiday he invites us down to his house for thanksgiving dinner, That made me quite happy, So once there the wife and i decided we would stay over the whole weekend and come home on sunday! So Me and Michael's Live in Boy toy .... came back up to my house to get Jess and I More Clean clothes ..... While Him and I Were up here, HE Found it ok to Have sex with my wife ....... Neither of them Told me ANYTHING About it until Tonight, DECEMBER 4th, and this took place the day after thanksgiving! ...... ...... Im guess im asking would anyone else consider this cheating, since he's telling me he dont wanna do anything sexual until he gets to know us better or what ..... Am i just being stupid here ? they both have lied to me, BOTH OF THEM! I Wouldnt be so upset about this, HAD Our FIRST Sexual Experience with HIM Involved BOTH OF US! NOT JUST ONE OF US! ........ Im tore up here ... Im quite ready to crawl under a rock and die ..... Someone explain please, Help me make some sense of this before i up and do something stupid ....... My heart is broken here, because I Honestly LOVE THEM BOTH ...... but i cannot take the lies if this is what's gonna happen .....
Thanks In Advance .... Dunno that i'll be able to answer later .. Im pretty upset right now .... I So thought our first time with him was going to be together .... and i would have been OK With it not being, IF I had not been lied too for almost a full week about it, because I have asked them BOTH Why didnt you guys mess around ...... They both said we only teased each other a lil bit .... NO ONE Said YEAH WE FUCKED OK ....... Im HURT! HEARTBROKEN TO BE EXACT ...... Him and I are the BiSexual one's and HE Gives it to her first KNOWING Damn well im about to die for a good piece of Cock up my arse ........ I DONT UNDERSTAND .......
~BILL~ :flag4:
DUDE.
There are so many alleged bi dudes that as soon as a guy tells them "i have a wife/girlfriend" they are so hot and bothered to "do" the wife/girlfriend.
BOLLOCKS.
And the fact that he lied to you (about wanting to get to know you better... which "you" was he talking about? The half of you that is your WIFE?), and the fact that she lied to you (oooo damn that fkkn smarts!!!) simply fucked up. :2cents:
Which leads to some questions...
And how does your wife feel about all this? Does she understand your sense of betrayal? And another query, do you ( or why dont you) have any "ground rules" set for such an event? Some kind of boundaries of "you dont touch my wife only I do" or something like that?
Just questions. :(
Other than that... if it happened to me..
my ass would be in jail. I'd rip off his nads and yank out her "goods".
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Re: When Does it count as Cheating ?
yes this is a bisexual site but that doesnt mean that if one partner meets someone that they have to all be involved sexually, but as for your situation it is definately cheating since you were not told till so much later. could they have had sex at a moment when the passion just took them there ? yes but you should have been told either before or if it was a spontaneous thing then right after. the fact that you were not told shows they both knew it was wrong. I am unsure about you being upset that the sex didnt involve you the first time though unless that is what you have discussed in advance and that is the dynamic of your relationship. this is actually not a bisexual issue it is more of a polyamorous issue.you will probably get more feedback from Polymatchmaker.com .(not that we don't welcome you here) Good Luck Scott
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Re: When Does it count as Cheating ?
Any time that something sexual occurs outside of agreements that you and your spouse/partner have made, it is cheating.
If your wife and you did not agree to have sex without the other one there, then you got cheated on.
It was wrong for him to lie to you and it was wrong for her to have sex with the guy and not say anything about it. She had a responsibility to say "no" to the guy in the first place, unless you two had made an agreement otherwise.
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Re: When Does it count as Cheating ?
Just another question..
Is your wife in the habit of having sex with other men without your knowledge? Its difficult to make an observation without some sort of background info.... I'm still pissed off "for you" hun.
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Re: When Does it count as Cheating ?
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Originally Posted by
FalconAngel
Any time that something sexual occurs outside of agreements that you and your spouse/partner have made, it is cheating.
If your wife and you did not agree to have sex without the other one there, then you got cheated on.
It was wrong for him to lie to you and it was wrong for her to have sex with the guy and not say anything about it. She had a responsibility to say "no" to the guy in the first place, unless you two had made an agreement otherwise.
I do not necessarily agree that any "cheating" is going on as much as there is simply at the out set an absence of any ethics (the whole point of "bisexual ethics" to bring these kinds of situations into view). "Cheating" is not an act nor belongs to any kind of language compatible with bisexual orientation; aside of being a wholly negative perspective is better given over to more ethic imperatives-again, inclusive language necessary, ideas around mutual consent are in order.
When we consider a [married] couple seeking a third then the absolute social contract itself never considered the question of any ethics with regards the sanctity of the marriage ; And sadly once again all due to the fact that "marriage" is a polarization-NOT heterogeneous The relation arranged itself with the only prerequisite that intimate affections were potentially available between and amongst all three persons under any conditions allowing for the expression of otherwise real attraction or the exchange of real affections (if genuinely existing at all, though more relevant to the subject of "whoring" for sex' sake-where most of the problem is created to begin with). On that basis there is no no need to "ask or tell", and noone is jaded when a good time is had.
Marriages tend to become scapegoats for attitudes and perspectives that are never well defined and ultimately have no proper place in the heterogeneous psyche-when it exists at all. That the wife did not mention anything may only indicate assumption that degree of mutual comfort with the arrangement existed with the expectation that the integrity of the marriage is not threatened, but rather reinforced and enhanced with mutual spontaneity.
Only that he was not, apparently, ready for anything sexual with you, or that, again there was never any communication around ethics invoved within the context of a 2+1 arrangement.
Develop "Bisexual/Polyamorous Ethics" and these kinds of problems [and people] disappear.
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Re: When Does it count as Cheating ?
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Originally Posted by
proseros
I do not necessarily agree that any "cheating" is going on as much as there is simply at the out set an absence of any ethics (the whole point of "bisexual ethics" to bring these kinds of situations into view). "Cheating" is not an act nor belongs to any kind of language compatible with bisexual orientation; aside of being a wholly negative perspective is better given over to more ethic imperatives-again, inclusive language necessary, ideas around mutual consent are in order.
Develop "Bisexual/Polyamorous Ethics" and these kinds of problems [and people] disappear.
What complete BS. The "contract" is between two adults... they don't need society (or you or some panel of "experts") to tell them what is permissible and ethical in their relationship. They only need to communicate their expectations and desires and use those to agree upon what works for them. You've assumed that didn't happen and therefore they need some parental figure to tell them what it is.
It isn't clear to me if they defined boundaries. If not, shame on them.. they better do so now.
However, the only thing unethical in sexual relationships between two adults is doing something w/o consent of the other(s) involved. In our society it is assumed that a marriage is monogamous. That's a good enough starting point. If the individuals involved agree to set aside monogamy that is their business. They need to establish boundaries (or not -- rare I'm sure) to fit the comfort level of all involved. If they cannot agree on boundaries, one or both are too immature to consider a non-monogamous relationship.
Setting up "ethical guidelines" for everyone in this situation is completely unnecessary. If two adults aren't capable of communicating and agreeing to their own rules, they aren't mature enough to handle anything beyond monogamy.
Sounds to me as if you want some sort of "rules" set up to fit your own desires and then use the presumed authority of those rules to shove them down the throat of someone else.
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Re: When Does it count as Cheating ?
Ugh i guess i have ALOT of explaining to do ....... Heh!
I Told her up front I didnt care what she did with him, because ( STUPID ) ME Trusted them Both ..... And also with that trust ( STUPID AGAIN ) I Didnt think to mention I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW, and NOT BE LIED TO ABoUT ANYTHING .... So i guess all in all this is also my fault for NOT Making Myself Perfectly Clear ? ....... I Dunno! They BOTH Kept telling me " The First time we are together " So ... Naturally i assumed, Like Me they wanted the "First Sexual Encounter " To be ALL Three of us ...... ( As Diamond Dog Would Say SILLY BOI ) For even thinking that ....
I Ripped them both last night when we were alone for 20 mins or so ..... He Danced around the issue and wouldnt give me a str8 answer for anything, all i got was " We Didnt Finish " SO WHAT ? ........ Ya'll messed around, and then when i asked Straght Forward, Did you guys mess around ? They BOTH Said NO.... That's LYING ...... and something I "Thought" She would Never do to me! it get's Worse too, but im not gonna open that can here ......
I Was Mad, because i was a Bit Messed up, Ok so ALOT more than a bit ... But i said to him ..... SO Big boy you got what you wanted, when do you plan on helping me out with my wants and Desires ? ......... He says " Soon Very Soon " Maybe tomorrow night at your house after we are home from the bar ..... Sorry but i know better ..... It's not gonna happen ..... =( .... they are both lil happy campers and i get to sit back and watch them all happy and shit and suffer ..... This is just wonderful ....
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Re: When Does it count as Cheating ?
Maybe you could have been clearer, however, their guilty behavior after the fact shows that they KNEW what they were doing was outside the boundaries that had been communicated. The guy is a sleaze bag, get him out of your life. He can't help it, it's what he is. Your wife/GF/SO/whatever is another story. She betrayed you and knew she was betraying you, counting on some verbal ambiguity in your communication to give her an out, but inside she KNEW what she was doing would hurt you. I don't know anything else about your relationship with her so can't give any advice, but think you really need to re-evaluate her as a partner.
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KNOW YOU KNOW WAY BETTER THAN
To come at me like that allbimyself [licking lips and reaching for hot sauce]...
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Originally Posted by
allbimyself
What complete BS. The "contract" is between two adults... they don't need society (or you or some panel of "experts") to tell them what is permissible and ethical in their relationship. They only need to communicate their expectations and desires and use those to agree upon what works for them. You've assumed that didn't happen and therefore they need some parental figure to tell them what it is.
It isn't clear to me if they defined boundaries. If not, shame on them.. they better do so now.
However, the only thing unethical in sexual relationships between two adults is doing something w/o consent of the other(s) involved. In our society it is assumed that a marriage is monogamous. That's a good enough starting point. If the individuals involved agree to set aside monogamy that is their business. They need to establish boundaries (or not -- rare I'm sure) to fit the comfort level of all involved. If they cannot agree on boundaries, one or both are too immature to consider a non-monogamous relationship.
Setting up "ethical guidelines" for everyone in this situation is completely unnecessary. If two adults aren't capable of communicating and agreeing to their own rules, they aren't mature enough to handle anything beyond monogamy.
Sounds to me as if you want some sort of "rules" set up to fit your own desires and then use the presumed authority of those rules to shove them down the throat of someone else.
Okay first of all it is very interesting that you quote only the first paragraph and the last line of the post skipping everything-the body-of what is said, which means you make assumptions about what is said here without even comprehending anything to begin with. I NEVER SAID ANYTHING WAS UNETHICAL ABOUT ANYONE'S RELATIONSHIP! DON"T HALF QUOTE SOMETHING YOU OBVIOUS DIDN'T GET AND THEN FILL IN THE REST WITH A HOSTILE REACTION.
In addition to that-before I even get to No. 2, did you even think about what you were wrinting? Here read it again:
Quote:
They need to establish boundaries (or not -- rare I'm sure) to fit the comfort level of all involved. If they cannot agree on boundaries, one or both are too immature to consider a non-monogamous relationship.
Setting up "ethical guidelines" for everyone in this situation is completely unnecessary. If two adults aren't capable of communicating and agreeing to their own rules, they aren't mature enough to handle anything beyond monogamy.
Sounds to me as if you want some sort of "rules" set up to fit your own desires and then use the presumed authority of those rules to shove them down the throat of someone else.
I dunno maybe establishing boundaries (as you put it) isn't consistent with establishing ethical context [?]. When you figure it out you let me know. But that's not what I was talking about anyway, nor have I
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assumed that didn't happen and therefore they need some parental figure to tell them what it is.
So let me walk you through this again point for point. Here's the part you DIDN'T reference:
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When we consider a [married] couple seeking a third then the absolute social contract itself never considered the question of any ethics with regards the sanctity of the marriage ; And sadly once again all due to the fact that "marriage" is a polarization-NOT heterogeneous
DO YOU SEE ANYTHING THERE THAT REFRENCES THIS SPECIFIC RELATIONSHIP OR ANYTHING THAT DID OR DID NOT TAKE PLACE? It is a comment on the contradictions between the conventions of marriage and the presumed conventions of bisexuality. Moving forward-
NUMBER 2: THE ONLY ASSUMPTIONS IN THIS ENTIRE THREAD IS THE DRAMA CREATED AND FOCUSED AROUND THE IDEA OF "CHEATING" WHICH YOU YOURSELF CONTRIBUTE TO. There seems to always be a need here to put a negative spin on things, in this case the assumption that the uncommunicated 'tryst' was a deliberately malicious act. FOR YOUR INFORMATION I AM THE ONLY PERSON WHO HAS GIVEN THE BENEFIT OF DOUBT IN CONSIDERING THAT NOTHING AT ALL MALICIOUS OR DECEITFUL HAS OCCURRED, AND THE REASON FOR THAT HAS TO DO WITH THE SOCIAL "ETHICS" SUGGESTED BY BISEXUAL RELATIONSHIPS OF THIS OR ANY KIND AND WHICH ARE IN ABSOLUTE CONTRAST TO HOMOGENEOUS CONVENTIONS-MARRIAGE BEING ONE OF THEM.
As I have said over and over again that the whole point of "Bisexual Ethics" is in the recognition of the fact that we as persons who are poly-amourous must identify ourselves with language that is consistent with our orientation and not borrow from ingrained conventional ideas to define ourselves. It makes no difference who fucked who and the situation could have been the complete opposite. Would it have been "cheating" then? The only point I am trynig to get across-as long as not twisted into baseless drama-is that as far as BISEXUAL relationships are concerned, there can't be any cheating as long as everyone has mutually agreed to exchange affections this way, marriage or not-once again, because marriage is not heterogeneous.
Within the context of that arrangement if I [using myself as an example] am married, and I and my spouse agree to invite a third, then whatever happens is consistent with that arrangement, and the terms of the marriage are only as good as the integrity of the marriage to begin with. So in the end it shouldn't make any difference who's fucking who, or when it happened because WE AGREED ON IT. ALL THREE OF US.
I should feel no more jaded about my wife fucking someone yesterday than she should about me fucking the same person tomorrow or all three of us the day after that. The poster "feels" as though they've been cheated on since they weren't informed or included, but then that could've been the case either way at any time-once again, as long as the arrangement was in place.
The only thing in the end that would threaten the sanctity of my marriage IS HOW I CHOOSE TO THINK AND FEEL ABOUT WHAT I AND MY PARTNER ARE DOING. Otherwise, yes, you are certainly right; THEY ARE ADULTS AND KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE DOING. So-
why the hell is anyone catching feelings?
My only direct assumption here [which you've misread enough to thankfully echo] is that these same feelings arise from dependance on conventional ideas about what we are doing that in fact have nothing to do with what we are doing-not heterogeneous. They stem from an inherant attachment to standards that are "impossible and perverse" and simply do not work when applied to bisexuality, polyamory and in all their diverse manifestations. "Cheating" for example, has no place. "Jealousy" as well has no place, no how in the relationship. However-
Why I ended with this line:
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Develop "Bisexual/Polyamorous Ethics" and these kinds of problems [and people] disappear.
Should be obvious. Yes I agree that that there are people who "prey" as it were on relationships and marriages. But on the other hand, understanding the context of one's orientation and what it involves and to what degree does a lot for narrowing the odds of being preyed upon, doesn't it? This however should be never an issue when it comes to marriage, no matter what happens-That is the nature of the sanctity of marriage and that is where the ethics are consistent, in the knowing that the integrity of the marriage cannot be affected in this way by such circumstances. And now we've come full circle only to say that-
If invite a third to play and fear the spouse will run away
Then they have no marriage anyway
The best agreement for them is agreeing not to play.
Remember quite some time ago we saw a situation like this one with the same abosolute consent and the entire marriage was up the creek. Remember this?
And this?
And by the time I wind down... oh, what do we have here? A confession of sorts it seems?
Allby-No hard feelings. Just calling it as-well as proseros calls it.
You taste good with hot sauce. Peace.
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Re: KNOW YOU KNOW WAY BETTER THAN
Quote:
Originally Posted by
proseros
To come at me like that allbimyself [licking lips and reaching for hot sauce]...
Okay first of all it is very interesting that you quote only the first paragraph and the last line of the post skipping everything-the body-of what is said, which means you make assumptions about what is said here without even comprehending anything to begin with. I NEVER SAID ANYTHING WAS UNETHICAL ABOUT ANYONE'S RELATIONSHIP! DON"T HALF QUOTE SOMETHING YOU OBVIOUS DIDN'T GET AND THEN FILL IN THE REST WITH A HOSTILE REACTION.
The rest was just hyperbole.
Quote:
In addition to that-before I even get to No. 2, did you even think about what you were wrinting? Here read it again:
I dunno maybe establishing boundaries (as you put it) isn't consistent with establishing ethical context [?]. When you figure it out you let me know. But that's not what I was talking about anyway, nor have I
So let me walk you through this again point for point. Here's the part you DIDN'T reference:
DO YOU SEE ANYTHING THERE THAT REFRENCES THIS SPECIFIC RELATIONSHIP OR ANYTHING THAT DID OR DID NOT TAKE PLACE? It is a comment on the contradictions between the conventions of marriage and the presumed conventions of bisexuality. Moving forward-
Nope. I saw someone trying to state that there should be "ethical guidelines" for bisexual behavior. My point, that you miss, is that your premise is illogical. Every situation is unique. "Ethical guidelines" are bunk. You would seem to advocate that these guidelines be a default standard for any relationship involving at least one bisexual. That's NOT something we need. What we need is more communication between the couples involved. If that was not your point, I apologize. If it was, I stand by what I said.
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NUMBER 2: THE ONLY ASSUMPTIONS IN THIS ENTIRE THREAD IS THE DRAMA CREATED AND FOCUSED AROUND THE IDEA OF "CHEATING" WHICH YOU YOURSELF CONTRIBUTE TO. There seems to always be a need here to put a negative spin on things, in this case the assumption that the uncommunicated 'tryst' was a deliberately malicious act.
As I stated, the guilty behavior on the part of those involved shows that they knew they were going beyond the boundaries. Whether malicious or a mistake isn't important. THEY KNEW.
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FOR YOUR INFORMATION I AM THE ONLY PERSON WHO HAS GIVEN THE BENEFIT OF DOUBT IN CONSIDERING THAT NOTHING AT ALL MALICIOUS OR DECEITFUL HAS OCCURRED, AND THE REASON FOR THAT HAS TO DO WITH THE SOCIAL "ETHICS" SUGGESTED BY BISEXUAL RELATIONSHIPS OF THIS OR ANY KIND AND WHICH ARE IN ABSOLUTE CONTRAST TO HOMOGENEOUS CONVENTIONS-MARRIAGE BEING ONE OF THEM.
So we do disagree. I was correct in my interpretation of your words. Being bisexual does not remove from the bisexual person, or their partner, the responsibility to communicate, be honest and respect the other's boundaries.
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As I have said over and over again that the whole point of "Bisexual Ethics" is in the recognition of the fact that we as persons who are poly-amourous...
Ah, I see. FYI, bisexual does not mean poly-amorous. Two different animals.
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...must identify ourselves with language that is consistent with our orientation and not borrow from ingrained conventional ideas to define ourselves.
You define yourself how you want and communicate it with your partner(s). Leave me the same courtesy. The problem here is you are judging those involved according to YOUR ethics. My point is that the relationships of adults can only be judged ethically by the consent of those involved. They violated his boundaries and appear very much to have known they were.
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It makes no difference who fucked who and the situation could have been the complete opposite. Would it have been "cheating" then?
That depends on the boundaries set up by the principal couple involved.
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The only point I am trynig to get across-as long as not twisted into baseless drama-is that as far as BISEXUAL relationships are concerned, there can't be any cheating as long as everyone has mutually agreed to exchange affections this way...
Correct! However, you are ASSuming that was the case.
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... marriage or not-once again, because marriage is not heterogeneous.
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Within the context of that arrangement if I [using myself as an example] am married, and I and my spouse agree to invite a third, then whatever happens is consistent with that arrangement, and the terms of the marriage are only as good as the integrity of the marriage to begin with. So in the end it shouldn't make any difference who's fucking who, or when it happened because WE AGREED ON IT. ALL THREE OF US.
I agree. Again, I don't see where that conversation happened in the case described by the OP. They agreed to have a 3some, not individual coupling.
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I should feel no more jaded about my wife fucking someone yesterday than she should about me fucking the same person tomorrow or all three of us the day after that. The poster "feels" as though they've been cheated on since they weren't informed or included, but then that could've been the case either way at any time-once again, as long as the arrangement was in place.
The only thing in the end that would threaten the sanctity of my marriage IS HOW I CHOOSE TO THINK AND FEEL ABOUT WHAT I AND MY PARTNER ARE DOING. Otherwise, yes, you are certainly right; THEY ARE ADULTS AND KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE DOING. So-
Again, you are imposing your assumption of what was agreed to. It's quite obvious that there was NOT a conversation where the 3 people involved said "anything goes." The OP did NOT have that understanding and the behavior of the other two indicates they did not have that understanding or they would not have lied about it.
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My only direct assumption here [which you've misread enough to thankfully echo] is that these same feelings arise from dependance on conventional ideas about what we are doing that in fact have nothing to do with what we are doing-not heterogeneous. The stem from an inherant attachment to standards that are "impossible and perverse" and simply do not work when applied to bisexuality, polyamory and in all their diverse manifestations. "Cheating" for example, has no place. "Jealousy" as well has no place, no how in the relationship. However-
Wrong. They are lots of grey areas involved between totally monogamous and totally open. You seem to see it as a dichotomy when it isn't.
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Why I ended with this line:
Should be obvious. Yes I agree that that there are people who "prey" as it were on relationships and marriages. But on the other hand, understanding the context of one's orientation and what it involves and to what degree does a lot for narrowing the odds of being preyed upon, doesn't it? This however is should never an issue when it comes to marriage, no matter what happens-That is the nature of the sanctity of marriage and that is where the ethics are consistent, in the knowing that the integrity of the marriage cannot be affected in this way by circumstances such as these. And now we've come full circle only to say that-
If invite a third to play and fear the spouse will run away
Then they have no marriage anyway
The best agreement for them is agreeing not to play.
Remember quite some time ago we saw a situation like this one with the same abosolute consent and the entire marriage was up the creek. Remember this
http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4894?
And by the time I wind down... oh, what do we have here? A confession of sorts it seems?
Allby-No hard feelings. Just calling it as-well as
proseros calls it.
You taste good with hot sauce. Peace.
No hard feelings. I think I did misunderstand you somewhat, but still think you are wrong. There are many rules that can be applied when opening up a relationship. It isn't all or nothing.
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Re: When Does it count as Cheating ?
C'mon Ya'll dont be Fighting ..... Geez! LOL ....... I Did tell her that i did not care what she did with him, EVER ....... I Trust them both ..... But when they did have a Sexual Encounter ...... I Kinda guessed they had when we got home, And i asked, Ended up BOTH of them Lied about it ......
I Really DO NOT Care what they do ..... Just DONT lie to me about it, IF i ask .... that's ALL I ask .... It's that simple! Im Really an easy going kinda guy and usually DONT Take offense to much of anything, Except Being LIED Too ..
I Cannot stand a Liar or a Cheat ...... Drives me crazy! *Growls*
:bipride:
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Re: When Does it count as Cheating ?
Since it was another long way to the point.
Oh well I guess for today I'll just have to understand...
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Re: When Does it count as Cheating ?
Your original question was "When does it count as cheating"? To run the risk of sounding redundant, it counts as cheating whenever either party feels lied to, manipulated, or cast aside, which judging from your posts, you do. This is an altogether bad situation and for the both of them to put you there is unacceptable. I'd be pissed too.
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Re: When Does it count as Cheating ?
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Originally Posted by
Bi Boi Indiana
Hey Everyone,
The Wife & I Met this Wonderful Man right here on these Very Forums, We've talked to him alot online, Met him in real life ..... Went out on dates. But he's Telling me He's NOT Ready for anything sexual ..... Ok cool i can deal with that .......
So over the thanksgiving holiday he invites us down to his house for thanksgiving dinner, That made me quite happy, So once there the wife and i decided we would stay over the whole weekend and come home on sunday! So Me and Michael's Live in Boy toy .... came back up to my house to get Jess and I More Clean clothes ..... While Him and I Were up here, HE Found it ok to Have sex with my wife ....... Neither of them Told me ANYTHING About it until Tonight, DECEMBER 4th, and this took place the day after thanksgiving! ...... ...... Im guess im asking would anyone else consider this cheating, since he's telling me he dont wanna do anything sexual until he gets to know us better or what ..... Am i just being stupid here ? they both have lied to me, BOTH OF THEM! I Wouldnt be so upset about this, HAD Our FIRST Sexual Experience with HIM Involved BOTH OF US! NOT JUST ONE OF US! ........ Im tore up here ... Im quite ready to crawl under a rock and die ..... Someone explain please, Help me make some sense of this before i up and do something stupid ....... My heart is broken here, because I Honestly LOVE THEM BOTH ...... but i cannot take the lies if this is what's gonna happen .....
Thanks In Advance .... Dunno that i'll be able to answer later .. Im pretty upset right now .... I So thought our first time with him was going to be together .... and i would have been OK With it not being, IF I had not been lied too for almost a full week about it, because I have asked them BOTH Why didnt you guys mess around ...... They both said we only teased each other a lil bit .... NO ONE Said YEAH WE FUCKED OK ....... Im HURT! HEARTBROKEN TO BE EXACT ...... Him and I are the BiSexual one's and HE Gives it to her first KNOWING Damn well im about to die for a good piece of Cock up my arse ........ I DONT UNDERSTAND .......
~BILL~ :flag4:
Bill...one thing you never told us was what were the ground rules your wife and you agreed to in this type of lifestyle...my wife and I agree we will not ever have sex with anyone without the other knowing, and if for some reason sex happens the other is to tell as soon as sher/he gets home...we have only had that happen once with a man she met while out with some friends and she really, really wanted to fuck him so she did (condoms are always in her purse and in the glove box of our vehicles as safe sex is also our agreement) she came home and told me what happened and was really cool with it all other times we have let each other know we were going to have sex with someone (same sex or not) and it works out fine...most times though we play as a couple with a couple...but we have the agreement and it has worked great since we started to swing in 1999
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Re: When Does it count as Cheating ?
:)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
still_shy
Your original question was "When does it count as cheating"? To run the risk of sounding redundant, it counts as cheating whenever either party feels lied to, manipulated, or cast aside, which judging from your posts, you do. This is an altogether bad situation and for the both of them to put you there is unacceptable. I'd be pissed too.
you hit it right on the mark about the cheating aspect :)
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Re: When Does it count as Cheating ?
I have to concur with allbimyself on this question. You were lied to and they knew the action was out of bounds, it was cheating.
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Re: When Does it count as Cheating ?
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Originally Posted by
allbimyself
What complete BS. The "contract" is between two adults... they don't need society (or you or some panel of "experts") to tell them what is permissible and ethical in their relationship. They only need to communicate their expectations and desires and use those to agree upon what works for them. You've assumed that didn't happen and therefore they need some parental figure to tell them what it is.
It isn't clear to me if they defined boundaries. If not, shame on them.. they better do so now.
However, the only thing unethical in sexual relationships between two adults is doing something w/o consent of the other(s) involved. In our society it is assumed that a marriage is monogamous. That's a good enough starting point. If the individuals involved agree to set aside monogamy that is their business. They need to establish boundaries (or not -- rare I'm sure) to fit the comfort level of all involved. If they cannot agree on boundaries, one or both are too immature to consider a non-monogamous relationship.
Setting up "ethical guidelines" for everyone in this situation is completely unnecessary. If two adults aren't capable of communicating and agreeing to their own rules, they aren't mature enough to handle anything beyond monogamy.
Sounds to me as if you want some sort of "rules" set up to fit your own desires and then use the presumed authority of those rules to shove them down the throat of someone else.
We went into this Realationship with Michael With Really NO Set Boundries, But some have been set since! Never did i have a problem with Jess sleeping with him ...... Not even before i got him, the problem i have is BEING LIED TOO ........ I have been nothing but BRUTALLY Honest with BOTH of them ....
and they LIE To me ....... See what happens when your a very HONEST Person .... others lie to you and Break your heart, Slap ya in the face with DUH DUMBASS Wake up ......
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Re: When Does it count as Cheating ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fairbankswingers
Bill...one thing you never told us was what were the ground rules your wife and you agreed to in this type of lifestyle...my wife and I agree we will not ever have sex with anyone without the other knowing, and if for some reason sex happens the other is to tell as soon as sher/he gets home...we have only had that happen once with a man she met while out with some friends and she really, really wanted to fuck him so she did (condoms are always in her purse and in the glove box of our vehicles as safe sex is also our agreement) she came home and told me what happened and was really cool with it all other times we have let each other know we were going to have sex with someone (same sex or not) and it works out fine...most times though we play as a couple with a couple...but we have the agreement and it has worked great since we started to swing in 1999
Right now there are NO Set ground Rules with Michael ..... We ( Meaning Jess and Myself ) Both trust ourselves Enough with him that we dont want rules ... We want more of a realationship with him, and Rules For me never really worked in a Realationship .... All i do ask is that IF They have sex again, NOT To lie to me about it .... that's the ONLY Problem i have, Really
The Only Rule, Stipulation i have is The Use of Condoms! Everytime, NO Questions Asked .......
Now if it comes to the point that we dont see Mike again, and start over looking for someone ... there WILL BE RULES INVOLVED From the get go
:three:
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Re: When Does it count as Cheating ?
Opened this post thinking it was about something else, but found it interesting just the same.
In my mind it became cheating once they lied about it. Why they lied is the question. Just a thought, perhaps they knew it would bother you tremendously and wanted to protect you (don't know any of you, so this is armchair psychology here). Then they were caught in the web of deceit with no way out.
Personally, I give everyone one freebie. It is in man's nature to circle the wagons and protect. If your question about whether they did anything caught them unawares it is not an unusual response to deny everything....children do it without being taught to and before they know what they're doing. It is the exceptional adult that can avoid that behaviour and respond truthfuly in a caring thoughtful manner. Yes, maybe they could have had 'upstanding character' and admitted it right away, but maybe they didn't know how without hurting your feelings.
Now, with this event having happened and everyone's tried to explain themselves, no more freebies. From this point you have every right to expect honesty from the get-go.
Good Luck.
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Re: When Does it count as Cheating ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lifeisfun
Opened this post thinking it was about something else, but found it interesting just the same.
In my mind it became cheating once they lied about it. Why they lied is the question. Just a thought, perhaps they knew it would bother you tremendously and wanted to protect you (don't know any of you, so this is armchair psychology here). Then they were caught in the web of deceit with no way out.
Personally, I give everyone one freebie. It is in man's nature to circle the wagons and protect. If your question about whether they did anything caught them unawares it is not an unusual response to deny everything....children do it without being taught to and before they know what they're doing. It is the exceptional adult that can avoid that behaviour and respond truthfuly in a caring thoughtful manner. Yes, maybe they could have had 'upstanding character' and admitted it right away, but maybe they didn't know how without hurting your feelings.
Now, with this event having happened and everyone's tried to explain themselves, no more freebies. From this point you have every right to expect honesty from the get-go.
Good Luck.
Me had a gud giggle bout this post.. still its a view..valid me sposes..if a loada bollox... peeps don cheat 2 protect peeps..they cheat cos thats wot ther mind an body tell 'em thats wot they havta do 2 satisfy ther need..lust..libido...call it wotya will.. take it from me hun..the only protection involved isya own skin...course ya don wanna hurt ne 1.. but wen it cums 2 cheatin' its yasel an ya own selfishness wich is paramount..
Turnin 2 kiddies.. yas rong ther an all.. kids don do things an then deny everythin' instinctively..least not wivout sum form a teachin..they r indeed taught 2..eitha by ther peers, by observin adults doin it themsels.. or as in many parent child relationships.. wen they r very very young reactin 2 ther parents or otha adults cos those parents an adults hav disciplined even walloped those kids 2 severely.. an wallopin kids..espesh very young kids is neva wise move.. an so the kids 2 stop themsels gettin bollokked an screamed at in often the mos frightenin manner, or worse..cracked..learn 2 defend themsels by guess wot?? Lyin an denyin.. an so we in our own sweet way..teach those kiddies wen they r very younng.. often fore they can walk or talk..at an age wen as adults they will hav no memory we teach 'em how 2 lie an b dishonest..
..am not bein holier than thou 'ere hun..hav cheated an peeps got badly hurt.. me included.. an me world 1ce came crashin down ova me ears cos of it. ..hav also over-reacted 2 a small child's behaviour.. so am no saint.. but do hav an inklin a jus wy we do wot we do..an wy kids do wot they do an wiv our kids its summat we tryin 2 avoid.. teach kids 2 lie howeva they learn how 2 do it..ya set em up as a cheater in lata life in sum way or otha..
